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  • Speaker Reccomendation, Bookshelf, Near Wall

    I have been a long time lurker on many diy speaker forums, but have yet to take the plunge. Due to mostly $$ constraints I have been hesitent to jump in, I could only probably afford to do this once or twice.

    I am after advice with regard to a few well documented diy speakers, I am not going to try to create something new.

    My requirements are as follws:
    - Bookshelf speakers that will actually sit on a shelf, and therefore be quite close the wall. Shelf will be no more than 45cm (17inches) deep.
    - Amp is a Cambridge Audio 340R.
    - Room size 4m (13 feet) x 6m (19 feet).
    - Music styles: quite broad, a lot of new soul and jazz (4Hero, Hiatus Kaiyote), techno (Jeff Mills, Derrick May), electronic music (Massive Attack) and occasional foray into nineties nostalgia and pop.
    - Movies: not a priority.
    - Budget: no more than US$400 for parts (excluding cabinets).
    - Speaker Quality: I don't think I am an audiophile, but I have been improving my system every few years and therefore don't want to go backwards, my current setup are Wharfedale 8.4 (2 1/2 Way).

    My concerns are mostly about:
    - Placement close to the wall
    - Listening position, I don't have a listening room with a chair is the optiomal position, so I suppose I don't want a speaker with a narrow ideal listening postion.

    The contenders:

    Continuums (Jeff Bagby):
    Pros: I have read has a wide soundstage and is sealed and therefore will have less issues with near wall placement (don't be too harsh if I am way off on this thought).

    Cons: Will not pack much of a punch in the lower frequencys and I will not be able to supplement with a sub in the short term due to limited $$ (this may do my head in).

    Denham (Jeff Bagby)
    http://www.diysoundgroup.com/speaker...enham-kit.html an updated version of this http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...180-MTM-Design
    Pros: will go a little deeper.
    Cons: may not play well with near wall (I understand that I can put foam in the rear port, but I believe this reduces the bass).

    Could the Denham be modified to have a front port (or even a front slot port), would this help with near wall placement?

    If I had the $$ I would get the Statement Monitors (http://speakerdesignworks.com/Statements_Monitor.html) or Finalists (http://speakerdesignworks.com/Finalists_1.html) as I believe they have near wall options with a slightly modified crossover schematic. I was quite impressed with the full size statements II from this http://youtu.be/_PIK-htho-8

    All advice is welcome, I understand there are no perfect solutions, but just want reassurance that I am not throwing $$ down the drain. If other options spring to mind, please don't hesitate to throw them into the ring.

    Thanks in advance

    Ian.

  • #2
    Re: Speaker Reccomendation, Bookshelf, Near Wall

    Well, I own the Continuums and use them for the majority of my day-to-day music. They do lack a bit in the bass, but when you're near-field, that really doesn't matter.

    I'll ask that you consider looking into my Aria's. They were a budget build, but they punch way over their price range. They have quite a bit more extension than the continuums, but do sacrifice a smidge in the mid and upper range clarity. However, they're targeted at ~$150 for the pair, so there's quite a bit of budget left over. They're front ported, so they'll do OK near a wall.

    I certainly can't tell you how they compare against anything DIY outside of the continuum's, but they're a good all-around design for the type music you listed as long as you've got good recorded music (good quality and bit-depth). They're really revealing and hide almost nothing - so poorly recorded or encoded music shows.

    The Hitmakers, The Dreydel's, The Speedsters, The Blues, and the Stances all come to mind as possibilities as well. There's tons of great designs out there! I hope you find the perfect one!
    DARPA Jr - 2015 InDIYana Winner - RS180-8 + RS100P-8 + ND25FA
    The Aria's - RS150-4 (or RS150-8) + XT25SC90
    The Mariposa's - TEBM65C20F-8 + ND16FA
    The Canzonetta's - RS100P-8 and ND16FA
    AudioSource AMP-100 Mods OR Pyle PAMP1000 Mods

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Speaker Reccomendation, Bookshelf, Near Wall

      Your build looks good for the Aria's I will have to read in depth tonight.

      Thanks for the tip.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Speaker Reccomendation, Bookshelf, Near Wall

        Originally posted by tyger23 View Post
        Well, I own the Continuums and use them for the majority of my day-to-day music.
        Can I ask why do you listen to the Continuums everyday?

        I keep on thinking they are not the right speaker for me because of the bass, but everytime I read about them or someone comments on them I get the impression that they are pretty special. And that I should just suck it up, buy them and sell my grandmother for a sub.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Speaker Reccomendation, Bookshelf, Near Wall

          Changing the Denham set to front port or slot is no problem. And would work well.
          I'm beginning to sound like a broken record around here lately, but I will suggest my Armonicos as well. They would do well in filling a room that size and are pretty forgiving of placement. A more standard enclosure option is available as well.
          https://www.facebook.com/Mosaic-Audi...7373763888294/

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Speaker Reccomendation, Bookshelf, Near Wall

            I'm building speedsters for my HT at the moment with a slot port design. The limited test listening I did was really nice. Very full sounding speaker, with a very very "clear" ribbon.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Speaker Reccomendation, Bookshelf, Near Wall

              You mentioned not having an ideal listening position so I don't know if that means horizontally or vertically or both. If vertically, you may not want the ribbon based speakers due to their narrow vertical listening windows. I LOVE ribbons but I'm able to stay within a decent vertical window when I listen so I accept their limitations and enjoy. If that's not possible in your room, look for options with wider vertical dispersion.
              My Madisons use a round planar ribbon that has good vertical dispersion and will go into the low/mid-40s for bass extension. I rarely need a sub with them unless I just want big bass. My Jeffreys use the same tweeter with a larger woofer. Same low end extension but different sound due to different woofer. My sig has the summary descriptions but I'm poor at documenting my designs online but PM me and I'll give you the details of you're interested. Most rear ported designs can be front or slot ported without problems. Most other kits mentioned would be fine too if they meet your listening window requirements. Good luck.
              Nichikuros - Peerless 831735 Nomex + Vifa NE25VTA
              Digger8 - Small compact 8" sub with F3 = 20Hz
              Madison-D and Madison-R - Tang Band W4-1720 + Vifa BC25SC06 or Beston RT003C (TM and MTM)
              Jeffrey - Tang Band W5-704D + Beston RT003C
              Jasmine - Fountek FW146 + Fountek NeoCD3.0 Ribbon in Pioneer BS21 Cabinet

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Speaker Reccomendation, Bookshelf, Near Wall

                Originally posted by musiccynic View Post
                Can I ask why do you listen to the Continuums everyday?

                I keep on thinking they are not the right speaker for me because of the bass, but everytime I read about them or someone comments on them I get the impression that they are pretty special. And that I should just suck it up, buy them and sell my grandmother for a sub.
                The Continuum's were my first DIY build, and they were built by me specifically for me. When I chose them, I wanted something smallish for desktop placement and reference level acoustics. Everything pointed me in the Continuum's direction. I actually modified my NAD C315BEE integrated amplifier to provide a subwoofer output with an 80Hz crossover because I was worried about the bass. I used it with a 10" sub for a while, but it really wasn't necessary in my environment.

                Now, if I was wanting to use them for a main set of speakers in a larger room (not just a 10x10 office environment with near-field listening), I would definitely recommend a sub.

                My Aria designs will dig a little deeper and hold their own against the Continuums in some respects, especially when the music has lower bass content. This is not surprising as the Continuums are a sealed design (as versus a ported). However, the Continuums are just better in the upper mid range and especially in the highs. Please understand that I'm comparing a $50 tweeter against a $20 tweeter as well. I built my first set of Aria's (the 4-ohms) as a gift for my cousin who was graduating high school. Those are with her in a different state, so I don't get to listen to them. I was asked to build an 8-ohm version, and I've completed one of the pair of those speakers, but I still don't have a stereo pair. Life keeps preventing me from getting into the shop to finish up the second one.

                I'm actually listening to the solo 8-ohm Aria right now. It's playing Bach's Cello Suites (Pierre Fornier) through a refurbished and highly upgraded NAD2100 amplifier and an ESS9018 Saber Dac. It sounds superb, especially when you consider the $150 price tag. Just note - you don't HAVE to build your own cabinets, either. The Aira's were designed to fit into the 0.38 cubic foot cabinets sold by PE:
                http://www.parts-express.com/Search....itesearch=true

                Enjoy!
                DARPA Jr - 2015 InDIYana Winner - RS180-8 + RS100P-8 + ND25FA
                The Aria's - RS150-4 (or RS150-8) + XT25SC90
                The Mariposa's - TEBM65C20F-8 + ND16FA
                The Canzonetta's - RS100P-8 and ND16FA
                AudioSource AMP-100 Mods OR Pyle PAMP1000 Mods

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Speaker Reccomendation, Bookshelf, Near Wall

                  For 400$, you could snag a used pair of Focal 706Vs with stands that are front ported and will fit your needs completely.
                  i realise this is a DIY forum and am a DIY kinda guy.. but just saying, theres a place for everything, They will be hard to beat imho in what you're looking for at the $ point.
                  I still own a pair running off a Cambridge 640..

                  asmd.

                  Originally posted by musiccynic View Post
                  I have been a long time lurker on many diy speaker forums, but have yet to take the plunge. Due to mostly $$ constraints I have been hesitent to jump in, I could only probably afford to do this once or twice.

                  I am after advice with regard to a few well documented diy speakers, I am not going to try to create something new.

                  My requirements are as follws:
                  - Bookshelf speakers that will actually sit on a shelf, and therefore be quite close the wall. Shelf will be no more than 45cm (17inches) deep.
                  - Amp is a Cambridge Audio 340R.
                  - Room size 4m (13 feet) x 6m (19 feet).
                  - Music styles: quite broad, a lot of new soul and jazz (4Hero, Hiatus Kaiyote), techno (Jeff Mills, Derrick May), electronic music (Massive Attack) and occasional foray into nineties nostalgia and pop.
                  - Movies: not a priority.
                  - Budget: no more than US$400 for parts (excluding cabinets).
                  - Speaker Quality: I don't think I am an audiophile, but I have been improving my system every few years and therefore don't want to go backwards, my current setup are Wharfedale 8.4 (2 1/2 Way).

                  My concerns are mostly about:
                  - Placement close to the wall
                  - Listening position, I don't have a listening room with a chair is the optiomal position, so I suppose I don't want a speaker with a narrow ideal listening postion.

                  The contenders:

                  Continuums (Jeff Bagby):
                  Pros: I have read has a wide soundstage and is sealed and therefore will have less issues with near wall placement (don't be too harsh if I am way off on this thought).

                  Cons: Will not pack much of a punch in the lower frequencys and I will not be able to supplement with a sub in the short term due to limited $$ (this may do my head in).

                  Denham (Jeff Bagby)
                  http://www.diysoundgroup.com/speaker...enham-kit.html an updated version of this http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...180-MTM-Design
                  Pros: will go a little deeper.
                  Cons: may not play well with near wall (I understand that I can put foam in the rear port, but I believe this reduces the bass).

                  Could the Denham be modified to have a front port (or even a front slot port), would this help with near wall placement?

                  If I had the $$ I would get the Statement Monitors (http://speakerdesignworks.com/Statements_Monitor.html) or Finalists (http://speakerdesignworks.com/Finalists_1.html) as I believe they have near wall options with a slightly modified crossover schematic. I was quite impressed with the full size statements II from this http://youtu.be/_PIK-htho-8

                  All advice is welcome, I understand there are no perfect solutions, but just want reassurance that I am not throwing $$ down the drain. If other options spring to mind, please don't hesitate to throw them into the ring.

                  Thanks in advance

                  Ian.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Speaker Reccomendation, Bookshelf, Near Wall

                    Originally posted by asmd View Post
                    For 400$, you could snag a used pair of Focal 706Vs with stands that are front ported and will fit your needs completely.
                    i realise this is a DIY forum and am a DIY kinda guy.. but just saying, theres a place for everything, They will be hard to beat imho in what you're looking for at the $ point.

                    asmd.
                    That's what I'm using too. I paid $350 for a demo/customer return set in Havana vinyl from Music Direct last Thanksgiving. I have them on a table in a crazy contraption to keep the cats from getting all over them. Just the other day I decided to plug the front ports and tilt them back slightly to minimize lower frequencies hitting the desk.

                    Like you, I think DIY is a great option. But it is just that, an option. Not all commercial speakers suck *****. Plus, for guys like me that haven't build a lot of stuff it takes a very long time plus some mistakes to get things right.
                    1: Sony DVP-S7000 | Denon DVD-2900 | Laptop > Parasound Zdac > Denon AVR-5700 > Focal 826V | Def Tech BP2000 | (2) DIY 15" Subs powered by Crown XLS2500
                    2: Computer > Schiit ‹bered Bifrost > Emotiva RCA Control Freak > Crown XLS 1500 > Focal 706V | Def Tech SM450 | Velodyne F-1000B Sub

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Speaker Reccomendation, Bookshelf, Near Wall

                      Originally posted by doctormorbius View Post
                      Not all commercial speakers suck *****.
                      I don't think that's the theme of the forum wrt commercial speakers. Instead, it's that for the normal market price a commercial speaker goes for, a much better performing DIY speaker can be had. Obviously if a commercial speaker is bought at a huge discount (on this case 50% or more), that increases the value and puts it much closer to what a DIY solution would provide at that price. So performance wise, DIY offers a better value virtually all the time. Now aesthetics, that's a different story. It's hard to match the aesthetics of some commercial offerings, but that's not surprising since a large majority of the commercial speaker's cost goes into the aesthetics.
                      Nichikuros - Peerless 831735 Nomex + Vifa NE25VTA
                      Digger8 - Small compact 8" sub with F3 = 20Hz
                      Madison-D and Madison-R - Tang Band W4-1720 + Vifa BC25SC06 or Beston RT003C (TM and MTM)
                      Jeffrey - Tang Band W5-704D + Beston RT003C
                      Jasmine - Fountek FW146 + Fountek NeoCD3.0 Ribbon in Pioneer BS21 Cabinet

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Speaker Reccomendation, Bookshelf, Near Wall

                        Originally posted by isaeagle4031 View Post
                        I'm beginning to sound like a broken record around here lately, but I will suggest my Armonicos as well. They would do well in filling a room that size and are pretty forgiving of placement. A more standard enclosure option is available as well.
                        Thanks for the advice, they look quie nice and the larger woofer may satisfy my desire for a bit more low end.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Speaker Reccomendation, Bookshelf, Near Wall

                          Keep in mind that a speaker that is designed for free-field placement with baffle step compensation, like the the Denhams, will not work well near a wall. The upper bass and lower mids could become quite heavy sounding. This would go for other speakers too if they have baffle step compensation built in.
                          Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Speaker Reccomendation, Bookshelf, Near Wall

                            With a room that size and your music tastes, it's going to be very difficult for ANY compact bookshelf speaker to produce appreciable low end extension. I strongly urge you to up your budget a few $$$ and consider a DIY subwoofer. Giving your placement limitations, choosing a design with a large woofer is only going to make the boundary gain issues worse. $600 for components gets you a complete Continuum kit, a plate amplifier and very nice 10" subwoofer driver.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Speaker Reccomendation, Bookshelf, Near Wall

                              Originally posted by musiccynic View Post
                              Can I ask why do you listen to the Continuums everyday?

                              I keep on thinking they are not the right speaker for me because of the bass, but everytime I read about them or someone comments on them I get the impression that they are pretty special. And that I should just suck it up, buy them and sell my grandmother for a sub.
                              There's more to a speaker recommendation than a speaker... we listen to loudspeakers and rooms, never speakers alone, so the key is a good room-speaker match, including intended use. Since I learned this listening to Continuum, I'll use it as an example.

                              Jeff designed it as a free-standing speaker, with an intentional wiggle in the FR at the low end, a dip and peak arrangement that perceptually alters the sound for the better, making this speaker sound much larger. It really wants to be several feet from all room boundaries, with minimal room treatment. When used this way, it presents a seamless sound field with no sense of speaker location, they disappear. This is very special, and very enjoyable, explaining their popularity.

                              Mount them on in a bookcase, and they'll still sound good, albeit boomy, but the magic will be lost.

                              In fact, mounting any speaker in a conventional bookcase is a bad thing for frequency response. On HTGuide, they preface the proven designs list with data on the effect of speaker misplacement. The worst is a freestanding speaker on a bookcase. that leads to a couple recommendations...

                              1) use an on-wall/in-wall design, as others have said, so you don't get unwanted BSC and the resulting boominess.

                              2) give the speaker an entire shelf, so you can use a larger baffle and move any shelf edges as far from the drivers as possible.

                              That said, I'll also suggest a popular MTM that's been used in-wall with great success, the NatalieP. It's a "value" variant of Jon Marsh's Modula family, and has a full range of XO options. Scroll down the HTGuide link for links to the various configs. I've built 5 so far, the last pair a couple years ago, with a $400 part cost for the pair. Try and hit drivers sales and use permite inductors to keep const reasonable, as it's still a 15-part XO, and a unique series/parallel one at that.

                              As to bass extension, With a roughly 1 cu ft volume, you can make a ported box that'll do an honest 40Hz. I did 65L towers tuned to 30Hz and sealed 20L bookshelves . The former are good to 20Hz with room gain, the latter more like 80Hz. Lots of options in this speaker design family!

                              HAve fun,
                              Frank

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