A Hiquphon Substitute on the horizon?

[craigk]

Re: A Hiquphon Substitute on the horizon?

[QUOTE=Jeff B.;2034604]As a Manufacturing Engineer in Quality Control in a very sophisticated industry I won't buy into the idea that just because something is handmade or sorted it is of higher quality than mass-produced items. Automation has done a lot more than improve efficiency and lower costs, it is has dramatically improved quality (at least as Quality is defined in industry as reduced variation and tighter tolerancing). QUOTE]

In the late 80's early 90's when I was working as an engineer for Lockheed in Marettia Ga. I was also around a very sophisticated industry. Much of the technology that the automotive industry uses comes from Aerospace research. The automation we used produced great precision in the parts being manufactured. With the cost of the cost of the equipment used to produce these parts it would be almost impossible for a speaker manufacturing company to afford it. The other interesting issues is with all this marvelous equipment we were using, when it came down to removing material in the 1/100,000s for a complex surface, it was still done by hand or someone preforming a non-machine process like chemical milling. I am not saying that hand made is always the better route, but automation is not always the answer either.

[QUOTE The Hiquphon is an excellent tweeter, but it is an old design, first developed in the early 80's. Despite its cost and the attention it gets in manufacturing, I would not be able to say that it's impossible for a mass produced tweeter to out-perform it at a much lower price, because performance and price carry a very loose relationship. QUOTE]

I am not saying that would be impossible either. I am willing to say that a company in China producing $ 37.00 tweeters is not going to be the one to do it. If price and performance are such a loose relationship then I would not think that one of your favorite tweeters, as mentioned in another post would be the "old" SS9900, I would not think you would have been impressed with the Morel tweeter/mid design you just did, or thought that the ATC SM 75-150 was one of the best mids you ever used. by the way, this is a hand made mid also, one at a time. some times you do get what you pay for. I just happen to think, and just about everyone that has listened to my 2 way Hiquphon/SS seems to agree, that the tweeter is one of the best sounding they have listened to in a speaker.

as a side note, all those great SS Rev tweeters, are basically still using and older, outdated Vifa XT 25 motor.

[neildavis]

Re: A Hiquphon Substitute on the horizon?

The Hiquphons are simply not as advanced in design compared to many newer drivers, not even to the XT19 that has been out for years. It usually comes down to preference.
dlr

I've tested both of these tweeters, and I agree that the XT19 is more enjoyable to listen to.

About 9 years ago I did a lot of A/B testing using different 3/4" tweeters in a 3-way system that used an 8-pole crossover at 2900Hz. With the steep filters, I could easily isolate the effect of the tweeter and didn't need to worry about integrating its low frequency response. The OW1's had a unique character that was "different" from the other tweeters I tested. They sounded good on very complex music like choral works, but I thought the XT19 had a more "neutral" sound that was more accurate and more likeable. The XT19 sounded almost exactly like the Fostex FT28D, which I took to be a good sign. Two tweeters that had very different construction but sounded almost identical were both probably doing a good job. I had some 3/4" domes from Audax that were clearly inferior.

BTW, the Fostex FT28D is actually a 3/4" dome, in spite of its part number...or at least, the voice coil is 3/4"

[Jeff B.]

Re: A Hiquphon Substitute on the horizon?

If price and performance are such a loose relationship then I would not think that one of your favorite tweeters, as mentioned in another post would be the "old" SS9900, I would not think you would have been impressed with the Morel tweeter/mid design you just did, or thought that the ATC SM 75-150 was one of the best mids you ever used. by the way, this is a hand made mid also, one at a time. some times you do get what you pay for.

That seems like some convoluted logic there - I never said I didn't think some expensive drivers were excellent. Nothing I said rules that out either. Sometimes you get what you pay for and sometimes you don't. And yes, it is less likely that an inexpensive driver will be excellent, but nothing rules that out from happening either. Price to performance is a loose relationship, but I didn't say there was no relationship. And even though I agree with you for the most part on this, citing some examples of fabulous drivers that are also expensive in no way validates other expensive drivers on that alone. What is the real difference between the Scanspeak 9700 and the SB26STAC? Ulrick Schmidt has an interesting answer to that one.

[craigk]

Re: A Hiquphon Substitute on the horizon?

I understand the point you are making. there is the law of diminishing return for ever thing. look at many of the Accutons, not good by any standards. on the other side of the fence, look at Scanspeak, not many bad drivers. there is not a law, but maybe should be, for less expensive drivers also. the cheaper you get, the more difficult it is to find good sounding drivers. I just think that you have a better chance of getting a better sounding driver at the $ 100.00 price point than at the $ 35.00 price point. I would also think that most people that have listened to drivers in different price ranges would have to agree. in the end, you just do not see many world class speakers designed with $ 30.00 drivers, but there have been a few, and I will concede that the drivers have usually been a Vifa.

[Wolf]

Re: A Hiquphon Substitute on the horizon?

I understand the point you are making. there is the law of diminishing return for ever thing. look at many of the Accutons, not good by any standards. on the other side of the fence, look at Scanspeak, not many bad drivers. there is not a law, but maybe should be, for less expensive drivers also. the cheaper you get, the more difficult it is to find good sounding drivers. I just think that you have a better chance of getting a better sounding driver at the $ 100.00 price point than at the $ 35.00 price point. I would also think that most people that have listened to drivers in different price ranges would have to agree. in the end, you just do not see many world class speakers designed with $ 30.00 drivers, but there have been a few, and I will concede that the drivers have usually been a Vifa.

And yet, every time you've heard my Stances, I've heard you say; "I love these!"

$30 range for drivers, each.

Later,
Wolf

[craigk]

Re: A Hiquphon Substitute on the horizon?

And yet, every time you've heard my Stances, I've heard you say; "I love these!"

$30 range for drivers, each.

Later,
Wolf

I do like them. like I said, there are a few good, cheaper drivers out there. but out of all the small 2 ways you have built, how many have ended up sounding as good as these ? this is just one of those "you got it right" and the drivers work extremely well together.

[Jeff B.]

Re: A Hiquphon Substitute on the horizon?

I understand the point you are making. there is the law of diminishing return for ever thing. look at many of the Accutons, not good by any standards. on the other side of the fence, look at Scanspeak, not many bad drivers. there is not a law, but maybe should be, for less expensive drivers also. the cheaper you get, the more difficult it is to find good sounding drivers. I just think that you have a better chance of getting a better sounding driver at the $ 100.00 price point than at the $ 35.00 price point. I would also think that most people that have listened to drivers in different price ranges would have to agree. in the end, you just do not see many world class speakers designed with $ 30.00 drivers, but there have been a few, and I will concede that the drivers have usually been a Vifa.

Right. Ulrick knows how to design a tweeter though, pretty much everything he designed at Scanspeak was regarded universally as a reference standard tweeter. When he designed the SB26 tweeters he gave them design features you never see at this price point. It's what sets them apart from other tweeters in this price range.

Keep in mind that the ATC and the Revelators share some things in common: they have a very linear frequency response and very low nonlinear distortion, and their waterfall and energy storage plots are very clean as well. This is a combination that seems to be shared by most elite drivers. The SB26 tweeters have an extremely flat response and their nonlinear distortion is in the same neighborhood as the Scanspeaks. There is really no reason why it shouldn't sound excellent, which is what makes their value exceptional at this price-point.

That's what makes me wonder how the 19mm dome will sound. It may not live up its bigger brother's level of performance, but then it maybe it will, we will have to wait and find out. The 26mm domes have copper in the motor, I'm not sure that the 19 does, so it may not be quite as good. I will find out when I get a pair to measure and listen to.

[civit]

Re: A Hiquphon Substitute on the horizon?

30 dollars buys you a lot of speaker nowadays

The SS classic line dates back to the 70s, and the revelators are about 25 years old. Perhaps the state of the art moves slowly, but the best-value-for-the-money has been changing rapidly.

[Wolf]

Re: A Hiquphon Substitute on the horizon?

I do like them. like I said, there are a few good, cheaper drivers out there. but out of all the small 2 ways you have built, how many have ended up sounding as good as these ? this is just one of those "you got it right" and the drivers work extremely well together.

Smaller stuff I've built- sure, they sound nice too! BUT- only have a few designs for the $30 driver mark that sound great. My Mn-14 and Sophomores fit this criteria. It's not because I don't think they sound good, but because it's hard to hit the $30 mark in drivers in general in any kind of design- good or bad.

Later,
Wolf

[Jay1]

Re: A Hiquphon Substitute on the horizon?

Have any of you guys seen this Wavecor TW22WA06?

http://www.wavecor.com/html/tw022wa06.html

Waveguide loaded, and rated for 40 watts continuous with a 2khz LR2 (over 105db/1m with that low shallow xover)

[timw]

Re: A Hiquphon Substitute on the horizon?

Link to Wavecor TW022WA06 tests:

http://heissmann-acoustics.de/test-wavecor-tw022wa06/

Click on the British flag in the right column for the English translation.

[Jay1]

Re: A Hiquphon Substitute on the horizon?

Link to Wavecor TW022WA06 tests:

http://heissmann-acoustics.de/test-wavecor-tw022wa06/

Click on the British flag in the right column for the English translation.

Wow that looks really good!

[timw]

Re: A Hiquphon Substitute on the horizon?

The Wavecor TW022WA06 3/4" dome tweeter definitely has potential. And it has an fs of 750 Hz.
Don't be mislead by the scales of the impedance curve. The treble impedance curve is fairly flat, under 7 ohms at 20 kHz.
Solen of Canada sells it for $65.34 CAD.

[Jeff B.]

Re: A Hiquphon Substitute on the horizon?

The Wavecor TW022WA06 3/4" dome tweeter definitely has potential. And it has an fs of 750 Hz.
Don't be mislead by the scales of the impedance curve. The treble impedance curve is fairly flat, under 7 ohms at 20 kHz.
Solen of Canada sells it for $65.34 CAD.

It does look like a nice tweeter.

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Re: A Hiquphon Substitute on the horizon?

Any word on the release of this yet?