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  • #16
    Re: I'm just a simple caveman...

    Guys -
    This is all fantastic info. ESPECIALLY pointing out the concern about receiver loading. I think I'm probably looking at something like the Marantz 1403 or 1504. The bonus with both of those is they offer preamp outs for the front channels and sub.

    The dual mono sub config is also very enlightening. That, in conjunction with the relatively low power of modern receivers, is a strong argument for powered dual mono subs. That's a lotta mass for the receivers I'm seeing.

    Thanks for confirming that most receivers are AB! that's very helpful. IMHO I've seen too much variance in Class D to trust them universally (some are great, some are crap). Seems more reasonable chance to get a solid AB config than D. But again I'm a caveman.

    This is great info folks. I haven't read all of it yet cause some of those links are loooong, but I'm saving all this data to ingest as I can.

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    • #17
      Re: I'm just a simple caveman...

      Yamaha usually have preouts in relatively cheap models. The pre sounds good too with no harshness. Just get power amps of your liking for the front three and use the receiver amps for the surrounds. Good sound for modest investment.
      "It is only Scrooge McDuck and others with a personality disorder who have money as their goal"

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      • #18
        Re: I'm just a simple caveman...

        Where are you located ?

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        • #19
          Re: I'm just a simple caveman...

          I'm in Medina, OH, 20 miles SSW of Cleveland

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          • #20
            Re: I'm just a simple caveman...

            Right in the heart!

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            • #21
              Re: I'm just a simple caveman...

              Originally posted by kiro View Post
              I'm in Medina, OH, 20 miles SSW of Cleveland
              You are pretty damn close to me. I'm in Mayfield Heights, OH. If you decide to design you own speakers or such, and need help or tools to measure, shoot me a PM.
              Audio: Media PC -> Sabre ESS 9023 DAC -> Behringer EP2500 -> (insert speakers of the moment)
              Sites: Jupiter Audioworks - Flicker Stream - Proud Member of Midwest Audio Club

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: I'm just a simple caveman...

                Thanks Jason! I know the Heights - my gma lives there. I may take you up on the offer.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: I'm just a simple caveman...

                  You can get a mid-range/mid-price HT receiver from Yamaha or HK. djg brought up an important point about the speaker's impedance and the receiver's capability. The lower-priced options cannot usually handle a 4 ohm load. Make sure to check. I had an HTR-5240 Yamaha before I went back to 2-channel only. Having many different DIY speakers around, some 8 ohm, some 4 ohm, it never had any issues with the 4 ohm speakers I had hooked to it. I used a pair of 4 ohm MTM DIY speakers with it for a few months and the HTR never overheated or shut down. Yamaha is just one; with my retail experience, HK is another reliable brand where the specs are actual RMS ratings with an amp section that can handle 4 ohm speakers. Some of the guys have had good experience with Pioneer, but I haven't checked their ohm ratings lately. The new Marantz is another.

                  Jeff's PCD is here:

                  http://audio.claub.net/software/jbabgy/jbagby.html

                  Since you're quite familiar with computers, you should take to it fairly easy, and will have no issues reading a XO schematic. I came to computers late in my life, so I had some understanding issues to overcome with the various design programs. I couldn't read a schematic, so my first XOs looked exactly like the ladder-type, left-to-right layout. They were much bigger than they had to be, but they worked. After a few designs, I learned to conserve space and tie the ground connections at one point. While you're building a proven design, it'll help with learning the various aspects. These published designs that are/will be recommended have a lot of time put into them, especially with the XO work-up part. Lots of work with PCD, and lots more listening/voicing to get it just right. Various cabinet personalization techniques (looking at all the pics will show you how much individualization can be done) can really make it your own & unique, but messing with the original XO design will completely change the overall SQ. Once you get a feel for the build process, I'm positive you'll be anxious to start your own from-scratch project. You'll be ahead of the learning curve with the design programs, getting familiar with them while you're making the speakers. It's a lot different than by-the-numbers. Once you get started, you'll realize what I mean...there's many different ways to make them your own. If you look at all the different interpretations of say, Paul's Overnight Sensations, you can see the different individualism in each build.

                  rpb brought up another important consideration: your room and the space the speaker system will occupy. Some of the designs need some space away from the back wall, so if your spouse would like something unobtrusive (some gals want in-wall with no speakers on stands for example), make sure the design can accomodate that aspect. Curt Campbell has offered different XO alignments for near-wall, on-wall and away-from-the-wall on some of his designs. The Statement Monitors I built, have an option for near or away from the wall. Some projects have a matching center that use the same drivers as the mains and surrounds.


                  John A.
                  "Children play with b-a-l-l-s and sticks, men race, and real men race motorcycles"-John Surtees
                  Emotiva UPA-2, USP-1, ERC-1 CD
                  Yamaha KX-390 HX-Pro
                  Pioneer TX-9500 II
                  Yamaha YP-211 w/Grado GF3E+
                  Statement Monitors
                  Vintage system: Yamaha CR-420, Technics SL-PG100, Pioneer CT-F8282, Akai X-1800, Morel(T)/Vifa(W) DIY 2-way in .5 ft3
                  Photos: http://custom.smugmug.com/Electronic...#4114714_cGTBx
                  Blogs: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=2003

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: I'm just a simple caveman...

                    Thanks John! Great info! Can't wait to get started. I think I might go with the preconfigured XO because of the resistance concerns. Thanks for pointing out the wall proximity- my wife is seeing this is really gonna happen, so she's now requesting that I stay with wall mounted 2-ways lol. She's always had her heart set on the Bose satellites *shudder*

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: I'm just a simple caveman...

                      Good location! Many guys are near that area. Plus, there are events a few times a year where us speaker-geeks get together to listen to each others creations/builds and evaluate/help each other. Mostly just a reason to get together and enjoy the obsession, I mean hobby, and see some of the amazing craftsmanship these folks are capable of. Some are the OPD (Other Persons Design) builds, some are the from-scratch, all-on-their-own ones. You could attend just to hear some of the designs you might be interested in and meet the guys in person.

                      It's a great community of helpful people. I joined the old version of the forum back in 1999 when it was a simple BBS type. I've been content to build the OPDs, because for a comparable configuration/size, the SQ knocks the wee out of most of what I've evaluated & measured during my tenure at the audio store...even the well-known high-end stuff we carried. Once my family and friends got to hear their name-brand speakers next to the DIY designs I've made, it wasn't long before I was building a DIY design for them to replace those name-brands. I'm looking forward to see what you decide on, and the build process.


                      John A.
                      "Children play with b-a-l-l-s and sticks, men race, and real men race motorcycles"-John Surtees
                      Emotiva UPA-2, USP-1, ERC-1 CD
                      Yamaha KX-390 HX-Pro
                      Pioneer TX-9500 II
                      Yamaha YP-211 w/Grado GF3E+
                      Statement Monitors
                      Vintage system: Yamaha CR-420, Technics SL-PG100, Pioneer CT-F8282, Akai X-1800, Morel(T)/Vifa(W) DIY 2-way in .5 ft3
                      Photos: http://custom.smugmug.com/Electronic...#4114714_cGTBx
                      Blogs: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=2003

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: I'm just a simple caveman...

                        Then start with some weenie 2 ways for the L and R. When she sees that they're just not enough THEN you can make some nice big 3 ways and move the 2 ways to the surrounds.
                        My onkyo has pre outs and I use a Emotiva amp for the mains.
                        " To me, the soundstage presentation is more about phase and distortion and less about size. However, when you talk about bass extension, there's no replacement for displacement". Tyger23. 4.2015

                        Quote Originally Posted by hongrn. Oct 2014
                        Do you realize that being an American is like winning the biggest jackpot ever??

                        http://www.midwestaudioclub.com/spot...owell-simpson/
                        http://s413.photobucket.com/albums/pp216/arlis/

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                        • #27
                          Re: I'm just a simple caveman...

                          Cool I'll keep an eye out for the get togethers! The SQ is a big draw for me.

                          And Arlis I need to go as big as she'll allow right out the gate. She doesn't share my affinity for big sound. She appreciates nice sound, but isn't an audiophile in the least. If I made some small speakers for the front, her reaction would be "great! And you can make some smaller ones for the rears." I love her, but this is not a shared passion :-)

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                          • #28
                            Re: I'm just a simple caveman...

                            Wall-mounted does limit your choices. It has to do with "baffle step" and how the lower freq. propagate out and around the cabinet. If the XO is not designed with that consideration in mind, it won't sound very good. Designers take this into account when working up the XO. Some are designed specifically for wall-mounting or in-wall, like what Curt has done with this design:

                            http://www.speakerdesignworks.com/AviaTrix_5.html

                            He has changes to the XO for on-wall mounting in the write-up. I'm sure if you were looking at another design, suggestions could be offered about an on-wall option. Even when I worked where I did, bose was a 4-letter word. Especially after the strange un-heard-of restrictions they would've imposed on us regarding a 'non-competition" contract we would've had to sign, when the owner was considering adding them to our product line-up in the early 80s. Can't do A/B comparos with other speakers? How are people supposed to decide what they like? Glad you were able to steer her away from that choice! What is she going to say about a subwoofer?


                            John A.
                            "Children play with b-a-l-l-s and sticks, men race, and real men race motorcycles"-John Surtees
                            Emotiva UPA-2, USP-1, ERC-1 CD
                            Yamaha KX-390 HX-Pro
                            Pioneer TX-9500 II
                            Yamaha YP-211 w/Grado GF3E+
                            Statement Monitors
                            Vintage system: Yamaha CR-420, Technics SL-PG100, Pioneer CT-F8282, Akai X-1800, Morel(T)/Vifa(W) DIY 2-way in .5 ft3
                            Photos: http://custom.smugmug.com/Electronic...#4114714_cGTBx
                            Blogs: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=2003

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: I'm just a simple caveman...

                              I'd still like to try designing my own XO, even if it means I have to tear it out 5x and retry it 6x.
                              Good for you! I know this is against popular advice, but start from the ground up if you'd like - nothing wrong with that. It sounds like you understand that probably won't nail it the first time. There are lots of kits that you could start with, and that would be great, too. Personally, I learn best by needing to figure it out. I ask lots of questions and try to understand the 'why' more than the 'what'. Like asking the quesiton, 'what speaker is better?'; I wouldn't want to know the 'what' but rather, 'why would this speaker be better than another (given a certain scenario)'. Several years ago, I wanted to do the exact same thing as you, even though I lacked the high school hifi hand-me-down background. When I presented my rough plan to certain forums, most of their replies were quite snide and condescending, which really irritated me. Kind of like, because I even had to ask the question meant I wasn't worthy of them answering it. Luckily, this group isn't too bad

                              Sounds like you've got a good base to build on, Kiro. People have already brought up a lot of good things you should be concerned with in your build. So go for it! And have fun!

                              Here are my thoughts on your proposed system:

                              - a 5.1 system is a good place to start; normally, matching the left / center / right speakers is a good thing so as to avoid timbre shifts and other strangeties.

                              - if you listen to a fair amount of music or like to really blast the movies, 3-way mains (left and right) are, IMO, a good idea. Otherwise, since you'll be using a sub, you can certainly have an enjoyable experience with 2-way speakers all around and a good sub. Making your mains 2-way speakers frees up a little cash and time to be spent elsewhere. My personal preference is MTM's for the front three and TM's for the surrounds. Although an MTM is more difficult to design (and it presents in own set of issues as a center channel), it can be done - even without all of the software and measuring devices that most of us have amassed.

                              - what do I mean by a 'good' sub? Well, that's up to you. But something that is very musical with good extension. As noted above, I prefer to cross mine lower than 100 hz - usually around 63 hz as my main speakers are robust enough the play that low. It helps the sub blend with the main speakers so you can't tell where it is coming from, or that the bass is coming from a different speaker.

                              - you can learn a good deal about loudspeakers in Vance Dickason's book, the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook. IMO, it isn't the be-all end-all of loudspeaker literature. But it is certainly a good introduction and guide to start. The forums are great, too, but you have to wade through all of the off topic banter..

                              SQUIRREL!!!

                              - to use a 6.5" woofer in a 2 way design, generally you need to have a robust tweeter that is crossed relatively low. This has more to do with physics than with rules-of-thumb. Does that mean it's a bad idea? Certainly not. The limitations of that driver size (I hate calling them limitations, though...) just need to be accounted for in the design. A 5 1/4" driver might be a little more forgiving.

                              - should one person's ideas and opinions about what YOU want to do with YOUR system count a whole lot? No. At least I don't think so. There are a lot of talented designers on the forum, but I don't think that any one of them thinks they know it all. And if they do, their just a smart-alec-know-it-all that don't know jack! We shall call them SAKITDKJs from know on... BUT... there are usually some very good reasons to follow sound advice (see the pun there on 'sound'...). You just have to decide what that advice is.

                              - I've used mostly Pioneer and Yamaha receivers and have been very well pleased with them. You don't need a bajillion watts to make something sound good. But if you like it loud, it's nice to have separate power amps. Unless you know that's what you want now, I'd wait to upgrade to separate amps in the future. Current receivers provide plenty of clean power for the majority of 5.1 setups.

                              Squirrel!!!!

                              I'll get off my soap box now...

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: I'm just a simple caveman...

                                Thanks guys for the additional info! And yeah, she's good with a sub or two, cause I have a lot of ways of hiding those

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