DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

[DarKWerX]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

Hey Scott... you are spot on here friend. An OB, SLOB or Ripole should integrate very nicely with the panels. Never built a SLOB or Ripole but I love my OB panels. They have a clarity that you don't typically find with vented or sealed enclosures. I'd like a full-range panel but I think its asking a bit much unless you have room for a set of very large panels. ON is more practical and the QUALITY of bass is better than the panels in my opinion. A SLOB or Ripole would be fantastic in this situation as you can get a get 2 drivers in a relatively small amount of space... would sit nicely below a panel(s).

Lol... you and these panels where made for each other then!!

Rich, you certainly won't find any disagreement from me on the full range potential. Close to, and in some cases as close as I've ever to true FR. I've always found the panels a slight bit lacking with respect to the extremes of the audible range. Of course, I've never been singularly pleased with any FR driver I've heard, aside from where imaging is concerned. That includes some of the top end models from Fostex, Lowther, & others. With respect to the coned drivers: point source imaging, that they do extremely well, but my desires are a bit outside of the capabilities of even the best single full range speakers (cost no object incluido).

That said, I've been planning another delve into the experimental world at a later date... Rotary subwoofers. 5Hz is on my bucket list. Lol! DIY of course, the mech/electrical guy in me balks at the commercially available version's price, full stop. Nope, nope, nopety, nope, nope, NOPE. Not for $20k, ain't happening! :p Besides, I understand exactly how they did it, not to mention I have some rather large improvements on the design I have firmly in mind. Additionally, I sure don't see 1/10th the labor & materials in that price. Flying out to install it themselves, or not. :/

Thanks for the info & advice with the OB reinforcement kind sir, it's nice to get some positive feedback & confirmation on ideas that you've been tossing about in your head. :D

Hey Scott, thanks for the timely tip on the ink, without that i wouldn't have even thought to dye the glue.
Interesting that you are adding the ink after the glue is coated on. I just assumed to mix it right in, and luckily it went on ok, and dried rather quickly with no hairdryer needed. Maybe different ink?, I used Higgins brand, India black, pigment based drawing ink.

You're very welcome Paul, glad to be able to help those that may have room decor that clashes with the pink/baby blue/white foam panels, lol! I have absolutely no idea what brand the ink I used is, it was a rather generic printer cartridge refill kit I had laying around from a printer that died a while back. I noticed with this type, that it took much less ink to get acceptable coverage applying over the PVA treatment, rather than mixing with. No matter though, the fact that it worked out well for you is testament enough. I just had a thought that it would probably be prudent to advise everyone to test first beforehand due to the possible differences in inks.

Scott, I have been gathering parts for a ripole stack myself, as I have become spoiled by dipole Bass, but not liking the room taken over by giant panels. With the ripole it should be much more compact.

I'm just sitting here, laughing at how a hunk of insulation foam, 10 bucks of wood, and a cheap driver sound so good...

Those came out great Paul! Congrats!! Looking at your pics, I'm wondering which exciters you're using? I don't believe I've ever seen those particular models before. Rather beefy looking magnet structure; is the rest of the motor equally heavily built? Heh heh, I'm the cat that curiosity killed. :D

Yes sir, that was exactly my thoughts with the ripole. Small is certainly better with respect to my home office, being 14' x 16', I don't have enough space within for a pair of monolithic structures. Modern home's aren't exactly designed with a thought towards optimum audio driver placement, or performance, to say the very least. More with an eye to cramming everything into as small a space as possible... ;)



Have a great weekend everyone,
Scott

[Fshow]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

Hey Scott, thanks for the timely tip on the ink, without that i wouldn't have even thought to dye the glue.
Interesting that you are adding the ink after the glue is coated on. I just assumed to mix it right in, and luckily it went on ok, and dried rather quickly with no hairdryer needed. Maybe different ink?, I used Higgins brand, India black, pigment based drawing ink.

Rich, you wanted a report on some results? :D

ok, i got 'em done, and have stayed up way too late! yeah, it was a DML party

Initially I hooked them up full range, source was laptop filled with Flac files, foobar2000, 24/96 external dac, 30w/ch tube amp...

First impression, Holy Moly, these thing are LOUD. I wasn't expecting that, and second, where's the Bass? lol, I honestly didn't expect any, having some experience with dipoles. I listened for a few minutes, it was wide open, very ambient, but there was no real image, and it sounded phasy. Checked connections and Doh! In my haste to wire them up, I swapped polarity on one.
Ok, Imaging snapped into place and sounding much better. Still need Bass.... Plug in crossover, amp#2 and a set of old school acoustic suspension monkey coffins, dial in a 120 hz crossover for starters , adjust levels and lets see what these DML's can do.

Big sound stage, lots of air, very clear, better highs than I expected, actually a little too hot, will have to check with the mic another time.
Presentation is a little different. A little distant, not as close to the stage as I'm used to. It's not bad, just a different vantage point.
What is cool, is the extremely wide dispersion, as the sweet spot is now a sweet Zone. I could sit anywhere on the couch and the Acoustic Scene stayed solid, just like at a concert and moving over a couple chairs. This is way better than the Maggies can do.


Funny you mention that, later on, I went back to 1 amp full range operation, put the speakers right in front of the couch, and in extreme near field there was good bass. A little bit of EQ to these, or maybe even smaller ones would be a real nice desktop setup.
So far, these have exceeded my expectations, and i can't wait to start on the next one.

Scott, I have been gathering parts for a ripole stack myself, as I have become spoiled by dipole Bass, but not liking the room taken over by giant panels. With the ripole it should be much more compact.

I'm just sitting here, laughing at how a hunk of insulation foam, 10 bucks of wood, and a cheap driver sound so good...

Hi Paul

Nice job! I like your clever panel mount! Is that a speaker you are using for an exciter? If so how did you attach it to the panel.

I noticed the same thing about the sound dispersion on my panels. I have the panels directed right at me and only about 7 feet away. I have a small but narrow room and right now that's the only choice I have.

Thanks to both you and Scott for the info on black ink. I am tempted to try it but I already have 2 coats of PVA on the front, and I remember when I put too many coats on previous panels it added too much weight and the panels became more difficult to tame.

Thanks for sharing Fred

[DarKWerX]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

Thanks to both you and Scott for the info on black ink. I am tempted to try it but I already have 2 coats of PVA on the front, and I remember when I put too many coats on previous panels it added too much weight and the panels became more difficult to tame.

Thanks for sharing Fred

Hey Fred,

Just to let you know, in my initial experiments I was applying ink directly over the pva treatment. It didn't seem to affect sound quality at all, at least to my ears (and I have about 95% of my hearing intact according to my last hearing exam). That was with some of the old leftover $3 ea. buyout exciters, the ones with the white 3 legged mounting. Take that with a grain of salt though, & test it for yourself. I don't have access to a calibrated mic to verify what my ears hear anymore. Due to my bully puppy gnawing on my omnimic, gotta love puppies sometimes... Lol! :/


Consequently my RTA is out the window until I have the where-with-all to replace it. However, when applied over the PVA, the ink can be applied quite thin & achieve full opacity for complete coverage. And so, after curing, it should add extremely minimal weight & likely an unmeasurable amount of additional damping as the majority of it will evaporate.


*in other news*

Finally had a bit of free time to get started on mine. Panels are shaped & sanded w/ 60 Grit > 120 > 240. Just waiting on the 2nd coat of PVA to dry on the front of the panels now. As soon as the back sides done, assuming the rain holds off (it's threatening now, clouds are stacking between the horizon & here atm), I'll start ripping the MDF for the panel frame. Probably have to wait for tomorrow to finish the rest of the cutting, depending on weather. Afterwards, veneering & priming/painting.


Happy Easter everyone,
Scott

[Fshow]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

Hey Fred,

Just to let you know, in my initial experiments I was applying ink directly over the pva treatment. It didn't seem to affect sound quality at all, at least to my ears (and I have about 95% of my hearing intact according to my last hearing exam). That was with some of the old leftover $3 ea. buyout exciters, the ones with the white 3 legged mounting. Take that with a grain of salt though, & test it for yourself. I don't have access to a calibrated mic to verify what my ears hear anymore. Due to my bully puppy gnawing on my omnimic, gotta love puppies sometimes... Lol! :/


Consequently my RTA is out the window until I have the where-with-all to replace it. However, when applied over the PVA, the ink can be applied quite thin & achieve full opacity for complete coverage. And so, after curing, it should add extremely minimal weight & likely an unmeasurable amount of additional damping as the majority of it will evaporate.


*in other news*

Finally had a bit of free time to get started on mine. Panels are shaped & sanded w/ 60 Grit > 120 > 240. Just waiting on the 2nd coat of PVA to dry on the front of the panels now. As soon as the back sides done, assuming the rain holds off (it's threatening now, clouds are stacking between the horizon & here atm), I'll start ripping the MDF for the panel frame. Probably have to wait for tomorrow to finish the rest of the cutting, depending on weather. Afterwards, veneering & priming/painting.


Happy Easter everyone,
Scott

Hi Scott

Thanks for the info!! I'll have to give it a try. Glad your hearing is still in tact, be sure to take care of it by wearing hearing protection whenever warranted, at my age 8 k is tops for me.

Thanks again
Fred

[secret4mula]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

Hey Guys, Thanks for the thumbs up, Having fun and learning

Scott, looking forward to see pics of your build.

Fred, I guess fixed mount doesnt seem to hinder the low end too bad on your large panels.
I had to adjust my xover to 300hz, surely higher than I want, but being they are only 12x18 thats what i get for now.

The exciters i am using are just generic 3" full range drivers that i converted by gluing to the voicecoil a spacer to drive the panel. Being that this was an instant gratification build, I just used what I had on hand, but now I feel they need a bigger motor, and gotta get the weight of the panel down. I weighed out the xps and the Adams foamcore(paper peeled off) with and without the pva coating, and calculated the weight/coat/side of the pva.

Owens-Corning Foamular 250 3/4 in thick - 0.356 grams/in^2
Adams Foamcore Board 3/16 in thick - 0.094 grams/in^2
50/50 Elmers Carpenters/h2O 1 coat/side - 0.036 grams/in^2

so a 20"x30" size comes out to:

pink xps 3/4 - 213.6 grams
foamcore 3/16 - 56.4 grams
pva coating - 5.2 grams/coat/side

3/16 foamcore with 3 coats is up next.


Fred, yeah, I think the wide soundfield is my favorite aspect to these panels,and here are some screengrabs of Tectonics graphs that show a little more on the dispersion characteristics.

[rmeinke]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

Hows it going with the panels fellas?? I've been insanely busy with work and life and had to tear down the panels this last week for the holidays (I still don't understand my wife... unfair demands from the significant other I say. Think these looked lovely in the living room... )

Good to hear you like the presentation of the panels Mula... very wide dispersion with a sound stage that just floats in the air completely unattached to the speakers is the best way I can describe the sound field. Wonder how the drivers you have compared to exciters? Love to see a RTA measurement on these.

Anyway... hope you all are doing well and enjoying the panels!!

[vega406]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

I have built a pair, but have not had any real time to "play" with them. From what I heard, they do not sound bad at all, but they were not setup ideally. Once I can actually set them up correctly and play with them for awhile, i'll update.

[rmeinke]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

HHey Josh! What did you go with for the build?

Looking forward to your impressions. Make sure you get them out in the room to hear what they can do and give them a little time. If you went with Ultra's they sound very good right out of the box... might take some time for you to adjust to the presentation and more diffused sound but other than that just a few days for the panel treatment to cure and you should be a pretty good place sonically. If you decided on the Thrusters, I personally... and I KNOW this sound odd... but I think they need a little time to warm up with each listening session in addition to the normal week+ long run in. I blame the metal spider of the Thrusters for the needed warm up time.

Holler back with any questions!

[vega406]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

I went with the ultras with 24"x30" 1 inch panels and they have had well over a week to cure at this time. It's crazy, but I just haven't had time to really play with them. I also need to find the small connectors so that I can have a secure connection. I am excited to really try out a range of music to see how they respond and sound. Nice cheap, quick project :D

[rmeinke]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

Nice... looks like a familiar setup!

So how are they sounding now Josh? Hard to analyze them after a few listening sessions huh?!? At first I was not digging on them and was pretty disappointed honestly. But I kept listening and the more you listen the more you take in and begin to realize and appreciate their qualities. Once your at that point, go back and try to listen to even a quality speaker in a box... you will typically not have the same clarity, detail and wide and open soundstage.

Pretty amazing for 2 hours of effort, 2 pieces of XPS and 2 $14 exciters huh!!

[vega406]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

I had a night when the wife went out with her friends and I was listening. They definitely do have clarity and the sound stage is impressive. I didn't have them turned up very loud, but one of my exciters let go and it looks like the voice coil separated. I contacted PE and they have sent out a replacement that I need to pickup from my parents. I suppose i'll just have to listen to them at a lower volume than I listen to my normal speakers.

Still, they are cheap to build and are fun. I'll run these for awhile longer to see if they live before I decide to build anymore pairs!

[rmeinke]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

Hey man! Thats disappointing... the Ultra's can be fragile with out a doubt. I had 2 fail on me right at the onset but have been more reliable since I high-passed my panels 24db at 40Hz. Given this panel size, there is a narrow but strong peak around 30Hz so high passing them will be a benefit.

The high compliance, free floating motor makes for a very since sounding exciter on light-weight material but with the current design, it also leads to large excursions which can cause the thin positive lead to break unfortunately. Is this what happened to yours?

Hope you got your replacement and are back into business!!

[rmeinke]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

Hows it going fellas? Life has been busy and no time to listen to music let alone work on speaker projects.

Just getting caught up but thought this was an interesting post(below) over at AC in the NXT thread. There have been very good reports on panels used for HT. The clarity and detail of the panels is very evident with excellent voice intelligibility and the dispersion characteristics of the panel help to envelope the listener... the sound stage is ginormous.

...
...

"Just wanted to tell ya'll a little story. This morning we had a babysitter so the little lady and I could have some kiddo free time so we decided to go see a movie. Found one we wanted, went and got all our goodies, finally movie time. Room goes dark, screen comes on............
.....aaaaaannnnddddd total disappointment. She and I looked at each other and with faces scrunched up and said almost in unison " This sounds like crap"

We have been spoiled by our panels. The sound in the theater was muffled, veiled, and not distinct. Not to mention a lack of bass. No kick in the chest, no sense of directionality, no wow factor. The theater was a THX rated room and I was bored. If I ever doubted having my own panels and movie room, it was dispelled today. We will NOT ever be going back to the expensive tickets and concessions again. Henceforth we will watch from the comfort of our own home with our own reasonably priced snacks, and dare I say it, yes, even in my underwear if I damn well please!


To anybody lurking here or on the fence about these panels, DO IT! It is fairly cheap and you will love the sound from them!

Just my $0.02 :-)
Updates soon!

Semper Fi"

[rmeinke]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

I had a night when the wife went out with her friends and I was listening. They definitely do have clarity and the sound stage is impressive. I didn't have them turned up very loud, but one of my exciters let go and it looks like the voice coil separated. I contacted PE and they have sent out a replacement that I need to pickup from my parents. I suppose i'll just have to listen to them at a lower volume than I listen to my normal speakers.

Still, they are cheap to build and are fun. I'll run these for awhile longer to see if they live before I decide to build anymore pairs!

How is is going Josh?!? Have you had the chance to listen to the panels at length???

[vega406]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

How is is going Josh?!? Have you had the chance to listen to the panels at length???

Sorry, I have not sadly. The wife is pregnant and have been doing a lot with getting stuff ready for that and have been out of town a decent amount lately. Hopefully within the next couple weeks i'll get some "me" time to listen to them some more. I did play them for my wife and a couple friends and they were impressed. I have a coworker who heard a quick video I did on my phone wonder how that would be hooked up to a guitar amplifier...we might either have to get him to build a pair or even try it on mine :D

Hope you're having fun with them now that you hopefully have some free time!