DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

[Fshow]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

LOL... yeah, I can't go into a home improvement store either without looking for material to stick exciters to... i get that... :(

KEF has always built very well engineered and balanced speakers... consistent and solid engineering. I hadn't heard a KEF since the late 80's and think your assessment is spot on from that general era. Nice, well done, but I never would have purchased a set myself. I always favored small, more detailed speakers. These aluminium coned coaxial's are both detailed yet very balanced. Detailed but not etched in anyway... just very well done in my opinion... KEF has engineered some excellent drivers. Have considered dropping these coaxial in an open baffle. Used to be able to get them for under $120 just a few years ago but now $175 each (if you are a KEF owner) so won't be doing that any time soon.


Have been playing all kinds of music on CD and Spotify all afternoon and evening and can say that the panels really expose poor recordings. Bad recordings sound bad, good recordings sound very good. They are revealing of source and equipment I would say. They also seem to benefit from a good warm up... at least the Thruster with it's steel spider!?!? Not as much with the Ultra. I'm surprised that others haven't report that. That said... once warmed up...I can and do listen to these for hours and hours without fatigue.

What levels are you listening at and what music do you tend to listen too??

We need to get your panels performing correctly KB. I'm afraid you have some resonances that need to be dealt with. Even without EQ I was able to get my panels sounding pretty decent though they do benefit from EQ and support below 100Hz... you can EQ the low freq. to get a full-range panel but adding a sub and removing the lowest bass does help clean them up. OB bass bins are excellent with these panels but even the inexpensive 8" Dayton sub performs surprisingly well if listening at moderate volumes. I may have said this before... but it performs as well as the KEF's with very similar extension, output and quality. This still surprises me.

Happy New Year to all!!!

Hi Rich

I can't say if I heard a warmup period with the thrusters but don't doubt it. I have noticed in a big way that these speakers are non fatiguing. Because of my room I have to listen about 6 or seven feet away even at high sound levels (up to 90 db). I can listen for hours with no fatigue.

I also agree that these speakers are very revealing. I changed the amplifier, made a big improvement, I changed speaker cables, made a big improvement, have been playing audiophile choice recordings, makes a big difference. It makes me wonder about room conditioning and all the other things that can improve sound, these speakers just keep delivering.

Concerning resonances, I assume you mean bad things happening to the panels and the sound. I can't say about other panels whether they will have problems, but with these panels where the panel edges are fixed to the frame, with a stiff spline supporting the exciter solidly so that all the energy of the exciter is transmitted to the panel I have not heard of any problems to the sound. I have had problems where I have had unwanted resonances such as the speakers terminal plates vibrating, but I check with a sine wave generator and make sure there are no rattles. I am amazed now with these panels, I am constantly surprised by the bass, i really do comment to myself that this can't be possible. I would never have believed it would be possible for bass of this quality.
I agree that smaller panels crossed over with a sub would be better but I think larger full range panels have a valid place of their own.

Happy new year to all!!
Fred

[rmeinke]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

Hey Fred!
In regard to the warm up, I have a song Cowboy Junkies - Studio, track 1 (Shining Moon) that I noticed, particularly, that doesn't sound as good when I first start listening/early in the listening session. Margoo has a raspy voice to begin with and can be challenging to reproduce. Its not just this song, naturally, but this one is a more challenging vocal to get right.

Overall, however, to me they seem to get better and better the longer I listen. Yesterday was one of those listening sessions (and reason I mentioned) as we listened to all afternoon and evening... everything we played sounded fantastic... seemingly better than ever before... which was ironic given Kornbread's comment. I used to get that with my Quicksilver KT88 monoblocks many years ago... they sounded better and better after a lengthy warm up. Similarly... it may be electronics warming up and the panels, being revealing, are doing their job reproducing the signal as delivered. Still, I've noticed this with the Thrusters more so than the Ultra's for instance so may very well be a combination.

I haven't mentioned this much but has been something I've been listening for a few listening sessions after I got the Thrusters installed... its bugged me for some time and always wondered what was behind this observation. No matter, it doesn't impact panel building... just an aspect of the panels in my opinion.

One aspect to, pulling them out further in the room also seems to be an improvement. I know most of us listening in a small room, but drag them into the largest room and pull them way out into the room... tonally they seem to improve.

They can go low, that is for sure. And I bet with your solidly mounted frame, they are going lower as its one peice of material that the exciter is attempting to excite. The more weight the lower the panels go so I bet you are getting some good output down in the 30-40Hz range. That is full-range for most folks... at least me anyway.

And you bet they have a place... this was my original desire... to have a lightweight, full-range panel that I could take into the living room to setup/tear down quickly.

Simplicity can a powerful force. These get you to a no XO, full-range, DIY expirience more quickly than any other speaker I know of. For the investment in time and dollars... I'm still amazed...

[Fshow]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

Hey Fred!
In regard to the warm up, I have a song Cowboy Junkies - Studio, track 1 (Shining Moon) that I noticed, particularly, that doesn't sound as good when I first start listening/early in the listening session. Margoo has raspy voice to begin with and can be challenging to reproduce. Its not just this song, naturally, but this one is a more challenging vocal to get right.

Overall, however, to me they seem to get better and better the longer I listen. Yesterday was one of those listening sessions (and reason I mentioned) as we listened to all afternoon and evening... everything we played sounded fantastic... seemingly better than ever before... which was ironic given Kornbread's somment. I used to get that with my Quicksilver KT88 monoblocks many years ago... they sounded better and better with a lengthy warm up. Similarly... it may be electronics warming up and the panels, being revealing, are doing their job reproducing the signal as delivered. Still, I've noticed this with the Thrusters more so than the Ultra's for instance so may very well be a combination.

I haven't mentioned this much but has been something I've been listening for a few listening sessions after I got the Thrusters installed... its bugged me for some time and always wondered what was behind this observation. No matter, it doesn't impact panel building... just an aspect of the panels in my opinion.

One aspect to, pulling them out further in the room also seems to be an improvement. I know most of us listening in a small room, but drag them into the largest room and pull them way out into the room... tonally they seem to improve.

They can go low, that is for sure. And I bet with your solidly mounted frame, they are going lower as its one peice of material that the exciter is attempting to excite. The more weight the lower the panels go so I bet you are getting some good output down in the 30-40Hz range. That is full-range for most folks... at least me anyway.

And you bet they have a place... this was my original desire... to have a lightweight, full-range panel that I could take into the living room to setup/tear down quickly.

Simplicity can a powerful force. These get you to a no XO, full-range, DIY expirience more quickly than any other speaker I know of. For the investment in time and dollars... I'm still amazed...

Hi Rich

Thanks for the info, I'll try and find that track and give it a listen. Ya I have had days when everything sounds good and some days when they do not. When they sound good, I try and wait a few days before I get too enthusiastic. (Which doesn't always happen)
Have you noticed that theses speakers, while being very wide angle do have a sweet spot?
Keep up the enthusiasm it's appreciated.

Fred

[Unbiasedsound]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

I just got my (6) Dayton Audio DAEX30HESF-4 exciters. If I have time tomorrow I will be going down to the local hard ware store or a craft store to buy a bunch of materials to see which the exciters sound best on. Planning on duplicating my Bertagni's sm100 speakers and using them for rears and also I am going to make a center channel for use in a 5.1 set up using all exciter driven transducers , well except for the sub lol. I just hope these exciters are durable because I do not have any extra money to buy new ones at least not for a very long while lol. Also I dont want to prove my significant other to be right when she told me its just a waste of time and money LOL

[Kornbread]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

Have you noticed that theses speakers, while being very wide angle do have a sweet spot?

Yes.

even at high sound levels (up to 90 db).

Wow ... not a single one of these DAEX32EP-4's has ever been played that loud yet they self destruct? I asked PE 1) to look at this thread and comment on what the problem may be with these self destructing exciters and 2) recommend another brand of full range exciter that may work better for this application as I am tired of wasting time and money on this specific one 3) or refund my money and I'm done with the whole experiment. The customer service rep was going to escalate (on Dec.24) the issue to his manager, as of yet, no reply.

I dont want to prove my significant other to be right when she told me its just a waste of time and money LOL

:D ... KB's thinking this guy must be a newly wed ... :D If you only knew the number of times the wife has told me that! After a certain number of years you learn to tune that kind of stuff out, aka; you sign and deposit your paycheck, she gives you your allowance. :o

You also might find it extremely satisfying to DIY with some of the really cheap cone and dome buyouts, IMO you can get some really good tunes without a lot of $ investment.

rmeinke, when I said the KEF's were the kind of speaker you could just relax and enjoy, that was a high compliment, not a criticism. It was probably 97' or 98' at George Merrill's Underground Sound in Memphis, TN the KEF's were powered by a then new budget brand called Jolida, that is also where I seen (yes I could see the performers on stage) the full Spectral/MIT/Avalon Acoustics 2c3d Hologram system. Asking about your other gear clues me into the 'type of sound' you prefer which, in my mind, validates what you are hearing from your panels. The aha moment has alluded me and the builds/mods I've been through are not unlike some others that seem to really like their sound but, I have yet to see anyone comment on a distortion/fuzziness around the low middle/upper bass region of males vocals that has been present in every single one of these exciters, which, in turn, leaves me wondering if the exciters I'm getting may be different/bad to start with?

[rmeinke]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

Hi Rich

Thanks for the info, I'll try and find that track and give it a listen. Ya I have had days when everything sounds good and some days when they do not. When they sound good, I try and wait a few days before I get too enthusiastic. (Which doesn't always happen)
Have you noticed that theses speakers, while being very wide angle do have a sweet spot?
Keep up the enthusiasm it's appreciated.

Fred

Hey Fred!!
You may be hearing some of what I'm hearing. What I hear is typically a tonal/resonance issue possibly caused by a room node?! Is this what you hear??? Next time I get that sensation, I want to measure from the listening position to see if it shows up in the far field response.

Yay, the sweet spot is HUGE thanks to the omni-directional sound field but you are right... there are times when they don't sound as good as normal. If the panels are not performing as well as they normally do, try repositioning them if even slightly... typically changing the toe in or pulling them further from the back wall (or even closer) a little has done the trick for me. I tend to position them similar to open baffles with the speakers crossing about a foot in front of the listening position. This has given me the best results.

This has been my experience and have been paying much more attention over the last week with lots of hours on the panels. Looking forward to your impressions.

[rmeinke]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

I just got my (6) Dayton Audio DAEX30HESF-4 exciters. If I have time tomorrow I will be going down to the local hard ware store or a craft store to buy a bunch of materials to see which the exciters sound best on. Planning on duplicating my Bertagni's sm100 speakers and using them for rears and also I am going to make a center channel for use in a 5.1 set up using all exciter driven transducers , well except for the sub lol. I just hope these exciters are durable because I do not have any extra money to buy new ones at least not for a very long while lol. Also I dont want to prove my significant other to be right when she told me its just a waste of time and money LOL

Hey UBS! For a time saver (don't want the significant other to be right on this occasion) ... go right for the EPS/XPS... easy to get a hold of, can cut it with a utility knife and sounds good after its properly treated. It will perform very close to your EPS panels.

[rmeinke]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

Hey KB!!!

Yes.
Wow ... not a single one of these DAEX32EP-4's has ever been played that loud yet they self destruct? I asked PE 1) to look at this thread and comment on what the problem may be with these self destructing exciters and 2) recommend another brand of full range exciter that may work better for this application as I am tired of wasting time and money on this specific one 3) or refund my money and I'm done with the whole experiment. The customer service rep was going to escalate (on Dec.24) the issue to his manager, as of yet, no reply.

Does your exciter buzz/rattle or just goes dead???

After a certain number of years you learn to tune that kind of stuff out, aka; you sign and deposit your paycheck, she gives you your allowance. :o

That is spousal selective hearing syndrome. I have a ragging case of this. But if not for this I would have much less audio equipment and speaker junk so its not so bad of an infliction as they make it out to be.

rmeinke, when I said the KEF's were the kind of speaker you could just relax and enjoy, that was a high compliment, not a criticism. It was probably 97' or 98' at George Merrill's Underground Sound in Memphis, TN the KEF's were powered by a then new budget brand called Jolida, that is also where I seen (yes I could see the performers on stage) the full Spectral/MIT/Avalon Acoustics 2c3d Hologram system. Asking about your other gear clues me into the 'type of sound' you prefer which, in my mind, validates what you are hearing from your panels. The aha moment has alluded me and the builds/mods I've been through are not unlike some others that seem to really like their sound but, I have yet to see anyone comment on a distortion/fuzziness around the low middle/upper bass region of males vocals that has been present in every single one of these exciters, which, in turn, leaves me wondering if the exciters I'm getting may be different/bad to start with?

No, I didn't take it badly. I understand what you were getting at and hopefully my response back was taken in the same vein. :-) They were always nice, I agree, very well done but more polite for my taste. The new Q coaxials are still natural but are also detailed. I really like them and may actually prefer them to my Tang Band W4-1879 in OB... very close. The TB are detailed also but more laid back so a preference and mood thing for me.

I think our tastes are pretty close looking at your speakers and also amps (I like the Acurus amp you have... been looking to get one in my rotation.. on my short list).

Still think the sound quality/resonances you are getting are do to the large panels and very light suspension. The mid bass to lower treble are problematic on larger panels. I have only built 2 large panels but it was Muddy Water's Folk Sing that REALLY uncovered these large panel resonances. There are tracks where he goes from quiet to loud... very dynamic... that caused a very large (drum) resonance played even at moderate levels. Given that, I have to believe that the resonance are there at all times but at a lower level. The large panel guys really didn't have a cure... so since that time I have been enjoying smaller panels.

Still satisfying full range and EQed but better with a OB/small sub that matches the speed of these panels.

[Fshow]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

Hey KB!!!


Does your exciter buzz/rattle or just goes dead???



That is spousal selective hearing syndrome. I have a ragging case of this. But if not for this I would have much less audio equipment and speaker junk so its not so bad of an infliction as they make it out to be.



No, I didn't take it badly. I understand what you were getting at and hopefully my response back was taken in the same vein. :-) They were always nice, I agree, very well done but more polite for my taste. The new Q coaxials are still natural but are also detailed. I really like them and may actually prefer them to my Tang Band W4-1879 in OB... very close. The TB are detailed also but more laid back so a preference and mood thing for me.

I think our tastes are pretty close looking at your speakers and also amps (I like the Acurus amp you have... been looking to get one in my rotation.. on my short list).

Still think the sound quality/resonances you are getting are do to the large panels and very light suspension. The mid bass to lower treble are problematic on larger panels. I have only built 2 large panels but it was Muddy Water's Folk Sing that REALLY uncovered these large panel resonances. There are tracks where he goes from quiet to loud... very dynamic... that caused a very large (drum) resonance played even at moderate levels. Given that, I have to believe that the resonance are there at all times but at a lower level. The large panel guys really didn't have a cure... so since that time I have been enjoying smaller panels.

Still satisfying full range and EQed but better with a OB/small sub that matches the speed of these panels.

Hi all
There is a possibility that since my exciters are loaded, meaning that they are fixed against a spline and push against the foam panel, the excursion is limited as opposed to a free mounted exciter which may over extend at low frequencies. Just an idea, any way the exciters should be able to take it. I regularly play high impact sound at high levels, so far so good.
Also I don't detect drum resonances.

Fred

[Unbiasedsound]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

Hi all
There is a possibility that since my exciters are loaded, meaning that they are fixed against a spline and push against the foam panel, the excursion is limited as opposed to a free mounted exciter which may over extend at low frequencies. Just an idea, any way the exciters should be able to take it. I regularly play high impact sound at high levels, so far so good.
Also I don't detect drum resonances.

Fred

My Bertagnis are the same way where they are fixed against a spline with a foam panel held in place by a frame and as far as I can hear there is NO drum resonances, its very solid and tight.

Today I bought those pink panels at Home Depot and I also went to Walmart in the craft section and got some other thinner boards to experiment on, let the fun begin LOL.

[Kornbread]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

Hi all
There is a possibility that since my exciters are loaded, meaning that they are fixed against a spline and push against the foam panel, the excursion is limited as opposed to a free mounted exciter which may over extend at low frequencies. Just an idea, any way the exciters should be able to take it. I regularly play high impact sound at high levels, so far so good.
Also I don't detect drum resonances.

Fred

One of the steps in modding was to attach an exciter with hot glue to a support that mounted to the frame. It was mounted in a neutral position where the panel was neither pushing nor pulling on the exciter. While this did seem to smooth frequency response, the exciter died like the rest. It never approached 90db either. Good luck.

Does your exciter buzz/rattle or just goes dead???

They just stop; open circuit.



Just an FYI, for those of you who are Beatles fans, Spotify now has them.

[Fshow]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

One of the steps in modding was to attach an exciter with hot glue to a support that mounted to the frame. It was mouunted in a neutral position where the panel was neither pushing nor pulling on the exciter. While this did seem to smooth frequency response, the exciter died like the rest. It never approached 90db either. Good luck.





They just stop; open circuit.

Hi all
On another note, my brother in law, who I consider a true audiophile, came over for a 3 hour listen. He liked the speakers with their big Magnapans sound,,,he thought that the initial notes were immediate but there was a lack of richness after that, not what he is used to hearing. He also said that I was playing them too loudly for the room I was in. He said that the room needed some absorption, especially to the rear of the speakers. We made some changes to speaker locations which helped. He thought that abosorbtion panels would help but not resolve the speakers lack of richness. But with all that said he liked them.

What he was describing to me was over damping (maybe). I will be making the changes he suggested an I have a few ideas to improve the richness.

I,m signing out for a while now, I have got some other matters I have to attend to for a while.
Good luck
Fred

[Unbiasedsound]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

Started with the pink panels from Home Depot, I cut off the corners and sanded them and then sanded the front and back of the panels. After I wanted to see how they sounded like before I put the dampening solution of glue and water on the panels. Compared to my Bertagni speakers the pink panels didnt even come close they sounded like they were behind a wall LOL Hopefully with the dampening solution done by tomorrow it would sound better. I also played my exciters without attached to anything for 12 hrs straight to warm them up and break them in.

[rmeinke]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

Hi all
On another note, my brother in law, who I consider a true audiophile, came over for a 3 hour listen. He liked the speakers with their big Magnapans sound,,,he thought that the initial notes were immediate but there was a lack of richness after that, not what he is used to hearing. He also said that I was playing them too loudly for the room I was in. He said that the room needed some absorption, especially to the rear of the speakers. We made some changes to speaker locations which helped. He thought that abosorbtion panels would help but not resolve the speakers lack of richness. But with all that said he liked them.

What he was describing to me was over damping (maybe). I will be making the changes he suggested an I have a few ideas to improve the richness.

I,m signing out for a while now, I have got some other matters I have to attend to for a while.
Good luck
Fred

Hi Fred,
Most importantly, I hope all things are well by you and your wife. Will be in our thoughts Fred.

Of course each panel is different and each may have different challenges depending on panel material, suspension and exciter so its hard to generalize, but I can say I have not created a single panel yet that does not have an elevated response somewhere from upper bass to upper mid-range+. No exciter and panel combination has not benefited from equalization to provide a more well balanced presentation. Your rigid panel mounting may be different than my lightly suspended panels, but EQ is something to consider.

And this will probably sound like a broken record but a quality sub or open baffle bass bin will provide better sound quality in the lowest registers than these panels.

These will help to a certain extent, but there is still a vibrational character in the lower mid range that was really apparent when switching from the KEFs. I wonder if this is the character your brother in law heard??

[Fshow]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

Hi Fred,
Most importantly, I hope all things are well by you and your wife. Will be in our thoughts Fred.

Of course each panel is different and each may have different challenges depending on panel material, suspension and exciter so its hard to generalize, but I can say I have not created a single panel yet that does not have an elevated response somewhere from upper bass to upper mid-range+. No exciter and panel combination has not benefited from equalization to provide a more well balanced presentation. Your rigid panel mounting may be different than my lightly suspended panels, but EQ is something to consider.

And this will probably sound like a broken record but a quality sub or open baffle bass bin will provide better sound quality in the lowest registers than these panels.

These will help to a certain extent, but there is still a vibrational character in the lower mid range that was really apparent when switching from the KEFs. I wonder if this is the character your brother in law heard??

Hi Rich. Thanks for the kind words, time will smooth things out. I just don't want to be rude if someone writes me and I don't answer right away.

Concerning the review he didn't hear anything bad, nor did I. It was a wine tasting review, things that he thought the panels did or did not do compared to his system. Keep in mind that my system consisted of DIY speakers,interconnects,amplifier and speaker wire. His system by contrast is quite expensive and large. Also he has a large room treated with both diffraction and diffusion panels. I think he was quite surprised and amazed by DML panels. I showed him the video on YouTube where they talk about 104 db / watt, very low odd harmonic distortion and good phase response.

About equalization, I always use it, I boost the lower registers and tame down a smidgen on middle upper frequencies.

Concerning using a separate sub, this is for sure the best way, but I am kind of stubborn. I have my sights set on a single full range driver. Bass is important to me so I don't settle cheap..but right now the bass is great, yes it has uneven response and doesn't have the impact of a good 20 he sub but it is quite satisfying. My brother in law was looking for his copy of an Atlantic city pipe organ with 64 ft pipes to test out the response but he couldn't find it.

One thing I would like to do to my panels is to give the back of the panels (which is the side I listen to),another coat PVA. The front has two coats and is noticeably loader when I scratch it than the rear.

Fred