DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

[Unbiasedsound]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

Started with the pink panels from Home Depot, I cut off the corners and sanded them and then sanded the front and back of the panels. After I wanted to see how they sounded like before I put the dampening solution of glue and water on the panels. Compared to my Bertagni speakers the pink panels didnt even come close they sounded like they were behind a wall LOL Hopefully with the dampening solution done by tomorrow it would sound better. I also played my exciters without attached to anything for 12 hrs straight to warm them up and break them in.

With the glue solution dried I went to test them out to see if there was a improvement. Although there was a little improvement in sounding a bit clearer it was still lacking compared to my Bertagnis, maybe I did something wrong when making my panels? I also tried using a 20X30 1/4 foam board and from my hearing it had a better sounding tone then the pink panels. Or maybe this exciter is not as good as the Ultimate or the Thrusters? At this point I am a little discouraged but I havent given up as I have a lot more experimenting to do. If I can get them to sound at least 80% or equal to the Bertagnis I will be SATISFIED.

[Gary.M]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

With the glue solution dried I went to test them out to see if there was a improvement. Although there was a little improvement in sounding a bit clearer it was still lacking compared to my Bertagnis, maybe I did something wrong when making my panels? I also tried using a 20X30 1/4 foam board and from my hearing it had a better sounding tone then the pink panels. Or maybe this exciter is not as good as the Ultimate or the Thrusters? At this point I am a little discouraged but I havent given up as I have a lot more experimenting to do. If I can get them to sound at least 80% or equal to the Bertagnis I will be SATISFIED.

I'm interested to hear more about these panels of yours. What dimensions, method of support, and location of exciter? Photos?

[Unbiasedsound]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

I'm interested to hear more about these panels of yours. What dimensions, method of support, and location of exciter? Photos?

Its the pink panels from hope depot the same ones as riches panels if I am not mistaken. They are 2ftX2ft 1inch thick. Exciter I am using is the DAEX30HESF-4. Placement is according to the parts express data. I did not make a support method yet because am not satisfied with the performance/sound of the panels. My next experiment is too try a bigger foam maybe 20X30 1inch thick. I tried a 20X30 but it was only 1/4 inch thick and it had a better tone then the pink panels IMO. I am only guessing but I do believe the shape of a panel from a square to a rectangle has a different sound effect.

My main goal was to simulate my Bertagni sm100 speakers as thats what got me hooked on these exciter technology in the first place but I figure I give Rich's design a try first as a starter base just to see the comparison to my Bertagni speakers. My bertagni speakers are 19X25 and approx 2 inches thick. It uses 2 exciters per speaker one for the bass/mid and the other for the mid to high. Frame holding the exciters in place are some type of metal with a wood frame surrounding them, you can google pictures on the internet too get a better picture of what I am talking about.

Also I am in no way downing Rich's panels as maybe I did not do it correctly and or because I am using a different exciter then his ultras and thrusters as I believe certain exciters do better on certain substances you just have to match which one you like the most tonally which is basically each individuals own preference.

[Unbiasedsound]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

Hi all
On another note, my brother in law, who I consider a true audiophile, came over for a 3 hour listen. He liked the speakers with their big Magnapans sound,,,he thought that the initial notes were immediate but there was a lack of richness after that, not what he is used to hearing. He also said that I was playing them too loudly for the room I was in. He said that the room needed some absorption, especially to the rear of the speakers. We made some changes to speaker locations which helped. He thought that abosorbtion panels would help but not resolve the speakers lack of richness. But with all that said he liked them.

What he was describing to me was over damping (maybe). I will be making the changes he suggested an I have a few ideas to improve the richness.

I,m signing out for a while now, I have got some other matters I have to attend to for a while.
Good luck
Fred

My room was like that too when playing my Bertagni speakers as I turned up the volume they didnt seem to get much louder/richer sounding even up to -20db on my receiver but as soon as I put some absorbtion (yoga mats/weight mats at ross lol) panels directly UNDER the bertagni speakers the sound tighten up and became much fuller/richer sounding even at -30db on my receiver. I also put some sound absorbtion panels in the back of the room which made it sound even better as for the sides I use curtains to cover the window on one side of the room and another curtain to cover my sliding door closet which is on the other side which also helped a bit. I did not however put any absorbtion material in the front area of the room where the Bertagni speakers reside at as it seemed to diminish its unique sound panel richness, as I feel the bertagni speakers uses the rear wall as sound reinforcement for that fuller effect. All this just goes to show yawl how serious or you could call it "obsessed", I am with these flat panel speakers. lol

[Gary.M]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

Google NXT panel dimensions and choose a ratio from their patents then make the panel sized from that. Put the exciter where recommended proportionately as you have done now. Play with how it is suspended. See how you go.

I have corrugated cardboard and Bamboo ply panels in preparation at present based on NXT sizing.

[rmeinke]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

Its the pink panels from hope depot the same ones as riches panels if I am not mistaken. They are 2ftX2ft 1inch thick. Exciter I am using is the DAEX30HESF-4. Placement is according to the parts express data. I did not make a support method yet because am not satisfied with the performance/sound of the panels. My next experiment is too try a bigger foam maybe 20X30 1inch thick. I tried a 20X30 but it was only 1/4 inch thick and it had a better tone then the pink panels IMO. I am only guessing but I do believe the shape of a panel from a square to a rectangle has a different sound effect.

My main goal was to simulate my Bertagni sm100 speakers as thats what got me hooked on these exciter technology in the first place but I figure I give Rich's design a try first as a starter base just to see the comparison to my Bertagni speakers. My bertagni speakers are 19X25 and approx 2 inches thick. It uses 2 exciters per speaker one for the bass/mid and the other for the mid to high. Frame holding the exciters in place are some type of metal with a wood frame surrounding them, you can google pictures on the internet too get a better picture of what I am talking about.

Also I am in no way downing Rich's panels as maybe I did not do it correctly and or because I am using a different exciter then his ultras and thrusters as I believe certain exciters do better on certain substances you just have to match which one you like the most tonally which is basically each individuals own preference.

Gez, I'm away for a day or 2 and all these responses! Well done boys... looks like you guys are busy!

No offense taken UBS... those 2x2 panels were my first test panels and not optimal (but not bad either) and are super easy for anyone to put together for a quick introduction to DML panels sound with very little effort.

I'm looking forward to hearing how your effort goes. I have a feeling the EPS used in the Bertagni's is high quality. I've been looking for high quality EPS for some time locally with no luck. I did find a place out in Michigan with different densities and sizes and ships free for orders over $75. So if you are getting better performance (more presence and less diffused or distant sounding) from the Bertagni's I may break down and finally order some quality EPS.

Let us know how it progresses UBS... I'm really interested!!

Did you coat the panels with 2 treatments or 1. The recommendation over at AC was 1 originally, but I prefer 2. XPS just sanded sounds a bit fuzzy and hollow, PVA+water stiffens the panels and makes them sound less like XPS. :-) I've never tried 3 but is something I'd like to try.

Keep up the good work fellas!!

[rmeinke]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

My room was like that too when playing my Bertagni speakers as I turned up the volume they didnt seem to get much louder/richer sounding even up to -20db on my receiver but as soon as I put some absorbtion (yoga mats/weight mats at ross lol) panels directly UNDER the bertagni speakers the sound tighten up and became much fuller/richer sounding even at -30db on my receiver. I also put some sound absorbtion panels in the back of the room which made it sound even better as for the sides I use curtains to cover the window on one side of the room and another curtain to cover my sliding door closet which is on the other side which also helped a bit. I did not however put any absorbtion material in the front area of the room where the Bertagni speakers reside at as it seemed to diminish its unique sound panel richness, as I feel the bertagni speakers uses the rear wall as sound reinforcement for that fuller effect. All this just goes to show yawl how serious or you could call it "obsessed", I am with these flat panel speakers. lol

Just curious UBS, how do you have you panels positioned? On the floor? Resting on stands or ???

[rmeinke]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

Hi Rich. Thanks for the kind words, time will smooth things out. I just don't want to be rude if someone writes me and I don't answer right away.

Concerning the review he didn't hear anything bad, nor did I. It was a wine tasting review, things that he thought the panels did or did not do compared to his system. Keep in mind that my system consisted of DIY speakers,interconnects,amplifier and speaker wire. His system by contrast is quite expensive and large. Also he has a large room treated with both diffraction and diffusion panels. I think he was quite surprised and amazed by DML panels. I showed him the video on YouTube where they talk about 104 db / watt, very low odd harmonic distortion and good phase response.

About equalization, I always use it, I boost the lower registers and tame down a smidgen on middle upper frequencies.

Concerning using a separate sub, this is for sure the best way, but I am kind of stubborn. I have my sights set on a single full range driver. Bass is important to me so I don't settle cheap..but right now the bass is great, yes it has uneven response and doesn't have the impact of a good 20 he sub but it is quite satisfying. My brother in law was looking for his copy of an Atlantic city pipe organ with 64 ft pipes to test out the response but he couldn't find it.

One thing I would like to do to my panels is to give the back of the panels (which is the side I listen to),another coat PVA. The front has two coats and is noticeably loader when I scratch it than the rear.

Fred

Hey FShow! No, doubt... our flat panel DIY efforts are quite modest. I don't think anyone believes that these compete against the best of the best. But for the time and money they are hard to beat and offer such an interesting alternative. I've always loved flat panels and these are certainly unique!

Couldn't remember if you used EQ or not so wanted to mention quickly. It can make a real difference in tailoring the panels output for any number of reasons (exciter used, panel size or material, etc., etc.).

I totally get listening full-range without crossovers, etc. I can enjoy the panels this way as well... simple is good!! But have found that this seems the best way to make them sound a little less lean and a bit warmer overall. Just wanted to follow-up on the warmth comments you mentioned earlier. :-)

Definitely add another coat of treatment to the back of the panels. I did that to all of my earlier panels and have not made any new panels without 2 coats.

Good that you mention room treatment. When I first started, I listened to them in my small dedicated listening room. They didn't sound good. Once I moved to the living room where I can move them 4-5 feet out into the room, they sounded completely different. I have heavy drapes behind mine but don't think that makes much of a difference given how much I have them pulled out into the room. You are leading the way (and Captainjack) with listening in small rooms. Let us know how the room treatments go... critical component that has not received any attention in this or the AC NXT thread. Good stuff Fred!!

[Unbiasedsound]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

Gez, I'm away for a day or 2 and all these responses! Well done boys... looks like you guys are busy!

No offense taken UBS... those 2x2 panels were my first test panels and not optimal (but not bad either) and are super easy for anyone to put together for a quick introduction to DML panels sound with very little effort.

I'm looking forward to hearing how your effort goes. I have a feeling the EPS used in the Bertagni's is high quality. I've been looking for high quality EPS for some time locally with no luck. I did find a place out in Michigan with different densities and sizes and ships free for orders over $75. So if you are getting better performance (more presence and less diffused or distant sounding) from the Bertagni's I may break down and finally order some quality EPS.

Let us know how it progresses UBS... I'm really interested!!

Did you coat the panels with 2 treatments or 1. The recommendation over at AC was 1 originally, but I prefer 2. XPS just sanded sounds a bit fuzzy and hollow, PVA+water stiffens the panels and makes them sound less like XPS. :-) I've never tried 3 but is something I'd like to try.

Keep up the good work fellas!!

What ive noticed from the diffences of XPS compared to EPS is that the EPS seems to be more flexable while the XPS seems more stiff. Also from experimenting on other surfaces like all types of different card board and certain types of wood, plastic,fiber glass etc it seems to me that the most energy transfer seems to come from the XPS and EPS type of materials. Also switching back from XPS to EPS the XPS has a nasal higher pitched sound probably due to them being stiffer while the EPS seems to have a less nasal high pitched sound probably due to being more flexable.

I tried 1 coat first , tested the sound and then tried 2 coats. Also my Bertangnis have a coating on the front panel but no coating on the back where the exciter resides not sure of the exact reasoning for this though but if I had to guess the back where the exciter is attached too needs to flex while the front where it is coated needs to be stiffer for the sound to radiate better.

[Unbiasedsound]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

Just curious UBS, how do you have you panels positioned? On the floor? Resting on stands or ???

My bertagni speakers have a built in stand approx 3 inches that rest directly on the floor but the speaker itself is 25 inches tall so 28 inches all together plus counting my 1 inch absorbtion mats directly underneath them they stand at 29 inches total. I tried experimenting with different heights and usually anything below ear level sounds good but once it goes pass ear level it tends to sound too diffused with less bass maybe ceiling reflections I am not sure. lol

[rmeinke]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

Sorry UBS, I didn't make it very clear as to what panels. I was asking about your DIY panels.

But good insight...seems the small tweeter panel doesn't suffer from the diffused sound quality???

[Unbiasedsound]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

I also forgot to add that I discovered another thing while experimenting with my pink panels today. As you know my main goal is to mimic my Bertagnis speakers as close as possible to try and duplicate that exact sound of my bertagnis. My bertagnis uses two exciters per panel but not in the normal (placement) configuration of parts express data sheets. My bertagni uses 1 exciter in the corner for the highs/mids and another exciter in the middle for the midbass. Well on the front of the bertagni speakers in the corner where the high frequency exciter is positioned there is a circle/crater about 1/2 inch deep and approx 2 inch width carved there so the highs seem to come through much more clearer due to I guess the panel being thinner. So now I also believe panel thickness can have a lot to do with it. Most people that make these panels are only utilizing one shape meaning there thickness is the same throughout. If you look at the bertagnis panels in the back there are many grooves and craters creating different thickness and even with some glue in some holes I guess for added weight for a specific purpose. I guess Bertagni was ahead of his time when it came to these vibrational transducers and the way he designed his custom made/molded panels.

I tried that with the pink panels buy cutting about a half inch deep, 2 inch width circle crater in one of the corners and the highs and clarity have increased. There is a down fall to this method though, as you will NEED 2 exciters per panel, because one exciter will be dedicated to the high frequencies while the other exciter is for the mid/bass. This was my original plan any way since my bertagnis uses 2 exciters per panel, I just wired two of my 4ohm exciters in series to make 8ohms. I am just begining more experiments to come tomorrow lol.

This is the pic of the Bertagni speakers so you can get a better idea of what I am talking about> http://mlm-s2-p.mlstatic.com/bafles-...1_032014-F.jpg

See the the crater in the corner of the panel? Also do yawl notice the edges of the panels are shaped like those puzzle things?

[Kornbread]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

I tried that with the pink panels buy cutting about a half inch deep, 2 inch width circle crater in one of the corners and the highs and clarity have increased.

On the AC thread someone used a golf ball to make an indention in the exciter area, maybe a kitchen bowl pressed into the foam would be about the correct diameter and depth?

Thinking a groove with some glue/silicone, etc. place in it could be acting as damping which may be serving nearly the same purpose as the 'sound bridges'.

Yes, I do think panel thickness plays a significant role in the sound.

[rmeinke]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

There is a lot to consider and try.

Sedge over at AC thins the front of the exciter to improve the HF output. But I picked up a 1-3/8" Dia Top Bearing Dish, Bowl & Tray Router Bit of eBay a few months ago to thin out a reasonable sized area of the panel to make either a high-frequency portion of the panel or nearly a full-range panel.

A smaller voice coil also plays a large part to improve high frequency extension. Remember, as the length of the frequency waveform equals or is less than the voice coil diameter, the gap within the exciter and the panel act similar to an oil can effect.

I have an old post over at AC that links to a video from Tectonic Audio. So for better sound quality a thinner (and better suited material for HF) material should be used and for best HF extension, a smaller voice coil exciter should be used. I have 4 of the Dayton Audio DAEX19SL-4 exciters and pair of Tectonic Elements TEAX19C01-8 exciters for this purposes and a load of small valued caps to passively high-pass these smaller exciters to make a balanced panel.

Planning a simpler 2 panel with a high-power exciter on the lower panel portion and a thinned top panel with a smaller exciter. Both run full-range to begin but if that doesn't work as well as I hope a single panel divided into 3 areas would be the next step.

Have all the exciters and cross-over components... just need to get down in the shop and get this started. Just been hemming and hawwin' over panel material to use. XPS sounds pretty good but there is a slight coloration that has bugged me since switching from the KEF to the panels. Still wondering if a good quality EPS is better route given all the work that will go into this?!? Sedge over at AC has listened to both and prefers the EPS... so close to pulling the trigger... ahhhhhhh

[rmeinke]

Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

On the AC thread someone used a golf ball to make an indention in the exciter area, maybe a kitchen bowl pressed into the foam would be about the correct diameter and depth?

Thinking a groove with some glue/silicone, etc. place in it could be acting as damping which may be serving nearly the same purpose as the 'sound bridges'.

Yes, I do think panel thickness plays a significant role in the sound.

Ha, I was thinking the same KB. But the more I thought about it, I'm afraid that while the silicon with damp the high frequencies, it might join the panels and allow the low frequencies to pass more easily. The 2 panels would be joined more so mechanically and the low frequencies would be excited by both exciters. So been leaning to routing both front and back with a 1/2" rounded bit so the XPS is very thin then possible use thin felt to reinforce the panel. I'm going with that approach to begin and if it is to much of a PITA, then I can always revert to a 1/4" routed grove on both sides and silicone the groove for strength and damping.

Cool stuff to try!