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  • bilidru
    replied
    I've assembled my first panels. Finally I went with 4mm thick plywood of 40,5 x 40,5 cm for the speakers. I thought they had more deep tones than the 2cm thick xps panels. (Didn't get thinner ones in the stores) I also added a 2cm thick EPS of 55x45cm as a subwoofer.and I'm happy with the result.

    Leave a comment:


  • LOUT
    commented on 's reply
    Agreed about the $5, I'm mostly being kinda sarcastic and bitter about the higher price just to get one that doesn't look like it'll fall apart if you sneeze in its direction. I remember innitially feeling like the exciters were a really neat way to get a cheap speaker when I originally bought them to try. Now that I've heard what a $8+$13 tweeter+woofer in a small box can sound like, the exciters have sat in storage for a while.
    This thread has rekindled my interest, but the traditional speakers are tough competition.
    Luckily (silver lining) my main PE project parts are all on back-order for at least a month, so I have an excuse to play with the exciters and BassShakers while I wait.

  • LOUT
    commented on 's reply
    I think a lot of my original playing around was using different wood surfaces, so I'll have to remember to try some XPS at that size and think about a trip to a hardware store for EPS if I feel ambitious. The bass response did seem deeper than I remembered it being. I'll also need to experiment with bracing the fullrange exciter which makes sense for helping it reach more of its potential instead of simply relying on its own weightVSmomentum for moving the panel (like you and Kornbread already explained).

  • Unbiasedsound
    replied
    Originally posted by LOUT View Post

    I'm pretty sure I have a DAEX30HESF-4 I can play around with. I remember it being one of my favorites among the exciters I tried a few years ago. I certainly don't remember it reaching anywhere near 40hz though...I'll obviously need to try some new surfaces/materials. What material and size were you using that let it get that low?

    This thread is making me excited to dig out the little transducer collection that I haven't played with in quite a while. I think the cheaper DAEX25FHE-4 was suprisingly decent for the price...and it looks like it might sound similar to the Thruster/DAEX32EP-4 albeit at 24w VS 40w power-handling.
    I remember being pretty underwhelmed with the much more expensive DAEX25SHF-4 (though I don't think it was $40 when I bought it). I thought the HDN-8 was kinda garbage and didn't care much for the "SquareFrame" models I tried for whatever that's worth.

    EDIT: Looks like I still have;
    DAEX30HESF-4 (easily the most robust-looking of any fullrange exciter I've tried, with thicker tinsel leads and reinforced connection to voicecoil),
    DAEX25FHE-4 (looks like a cheaper 30HESF-4, but seems to lack some of the HESF's sensitivity and also might lack some of the HESF's bass and treble),
    DAEX25SHF-4 (still looks cheaper and more fragile than the HESF and mostly just sounds louder in the mid-frequency...like a louder 25FHE at 4X the price),
    DAEX58FP (sounds better than I remember and no exposed+delicate tinsel. Thought it was a little quiet but then realized it's 8ohm...not bad).
    I think the HDN-8 and coin-type low watt exciter I had broke. If I remember right, the HDN-8 partly fried (pushed a little too hard when it never got nearly loud enough) and the coin-type got slightly torn/damaged trying to seperate it from a surface it was stuck against with its strong adhesive.
    I was using a 2ft.X4ft.X10mm EPS used with a frame and a spine with a sub amp.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kornbread
    replied
    Surely 2' of braided wire doesn't cost $5. They were others who brought my attention to the solid tinsel wire. They had the same issue. Maybe Dayton made a change, or maybe it's like you said, tiny and fragile.
    Still have a large blue xps and treated cardboard panel framed and ready to go for the next exciter experiment, but, as much as I like messing with the odd stuff, a price tag close to $30 makes for stiff competition with some proven cone-n-dome budget drivers.
    Still curious about what you find with panel placement. My guess is that the affect panel placement has on the bass will not be as dramatic as a monopole.

    Leave a comment:


  • LOUT
    replied
    Originally posted by Kornbread View Post
    The solid wire tinsel from the tab to vc was the failure point. I'd wager the small solid wire acts just like a wire coat hanger after it's been flexed several times. Add to this the increase in excursion the exciter was likely experiencing with the larger panels, and it literally only took a few minutes until self destruction. If only they would have splurged the extra $.02 and upgraded to a braided wire ...

    Basically, this is the motor assembly of a typical cone-n-dome so yeah, you would think excursion would be an issue and something worth mentioning in the specs.
    In the PE images of the "Thruster"/DAEX32EP-4, it looks like the tinsel IS braided wire...just really tiny/thin (maybe also too tight and weakly attached).
    I think it's similar to most of the exciters I've used aside from the HESF, where it's still a flexible copper braid or strand, but stupidly thin.

    The Thruster/EP-4
    Click image for larger version

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    Still can't believe they kept that delicate build for the ~$40 DAEX25SHF-4 (although the current PE image looks to be a little better than mine). I thought maybe the HESF got more robust because of its higher wattage-handling, but that THRUSTER is also 40watts rated like the HESF but looks to be using the thin stuff.


    The HESF-4
    Click image for larger version

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    I haven't noticed any of the other Dayton fullrange exciters being built with more average speaker tinsel like this. Wonder if this is why the HESF costs $3-5 more.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kornbread
    replied
    Originally posted by LOUT View Post
    Most of them have REALLY thin tinsel from the tabs to the VC though, and it's often tightly stretched against the spider?/support which doesn't inspire confidence.... So far they've been okay, but XMECH has to be a danger at some point, right?
    The solid wire tinsel from the tab to vc was the failure point. I'd wager the small solid wire acts just like a wire coat hanger after it's been flexed several times. Add to this the increase in excursion the exciter was likely experiencing with the larger panels, and it literally only took a few minutes until self destruction. If only they would have splurged the extra $.02 and upgraded to a braided wire ...

    Basically, this is the motor assembly of a typical cone-n-dome so yeah, you would think excursion would be an issue and something worth mentioning in the specs.

    Leave a comment:


  • LOUT
    replied
    Originally posted by Kornbread View Post
    The DAEX32EP-4 are the exciters that always STB. Some never made it past the initial freq response measurement as the solid leads quickly broke. They, and PE refusing to replace any more, were the reason I got out of the dml foray.
    I suspect, akin to a normal driver, they have an excursion limit. This is listed as NA in their spec sheet. I suspect it possible, in the pursuit of larger panels with more bass, that larger nodes? were being created and forcing the exciter past its excursion limits. This, combined with the poorly thought out solid leads, made for a very short lived exciter and a lot of aggravation.

    I have not seen the bass shakers you are referencing so this may not apply. With the daex32ep solidly attached to the panel, and the panel only being held to the frame by small tabs of whatever type of panel in use at the time, attaching the back of the daex32 to a frame crossmember (front remains attached to the panel) with hot glue noticeably improved the sound, and IIRC, bass.
    The fullrange exciters I have all have solid tabs to solder to which haven't broke yet, but I've been relatively gentle. Most of them have REALLY thin tinsel from the tabs to the VC though, and it's often tightly stretched against the spider?/support which doesn't inspire confidence....except with the squareDAEX58FP (which has everything hidden where I can't accidentally catch it on something) and the HESF which looks more decently constructed.
    I am curious if the fullrange exciters I have will all handle a 20-60hz signal at their rated wattage. So far they've been okay, but XMECH has to be a danger at some point, right?

    The BST-2 BassShaker doesn't have the same exposed VC/motor that's separate from the frame like most fullrange exciters, instead the outside is essentially JUST the frame (which wraps around all the way over the front and everything) while I expect the internal VC/motor moves a weight.
    It has wires instead of solid-leads or clips (which I hope are knotted inside the enclosure to stop against the exit hole and avoid pulling off the voicecoil if tugged). So far a little gentle pulling of the wires from a vacuum and a cat hasn't wrecked the pair under the couch.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kornbread
    replied
    The DAEX32EP-4 are the exciters that always STB. Some never made it past the initial freq response measurement as the solid leads quickly broke. They, and PE refusing to replace any more, were the reason I got out of the dml foray.
    I suspect, akin to a normal driver, they have an excursion limit. This is listed as NA in their spec sheet. I suspect it possible, in the pursuit of larger panels with more bass, that larger nodes? were being created and forcing the exciter past its excursion limits. This, combined with the poorly thought out solid leads, made for a very short lived exciter and a lot of aggravation.

    I have not seen the bass shakers you are referencing so this may not apply. With the daex32ep solidly attached to the panel, and the panel only being held to the frame by small tabs of whatever type of panel in use at the time, attaching the back of the daex32 to a frame crossmember (front remains attached to the panel) with hot glue noticeably improved the sound, and IIRC, bass.

    Leave a comment:


  • LOUT
    replied
    Originally posted by Kornbread View Post
    Interesting. I had wondered about using a bass shaker on a large panel. Try solidly attaching the back of the bass shaker to something solid so it has something to push/pull from. Also try them close to the wall and see if that makes any changes.
    I think attaching the BassShaker itself to something super solid will stop it from being able to move/vibrate and stop it from being able to vibrate the panel...though it might get a wall to resonate deep bass as a side-effect (which could be interesting in its own right).

    I'll have to try the panel closer a wall like you mention. That should be more realistic for what anyone would normally do with a large panel. I was using a relatively short cord in the middle of the room during my quick "test" so I'm curious how different that might sound.
    I'll probably also need to grab a small section of plywood or something to let the screws anchor tight into something through the other side of the XPS...and see about some kind of temporary hanging method for the panel that won't put holes in the wall or ceiling.

    Originally posted by Unbiasedsound View Post
    The Dayton Puck Bass shaker is fully enclosed in some sort of metallic casing but its not air tight so some mid to highs can leak out in free air but not so much when attached to a material. So basically the whole casing vibrates you can put either side to the panel and it will vibrate the panel. Unlike a exciter in which it only vibrates on one side were the plastic is attached to the voice coil.

    The metallic casing is to dense for high frequencies to pass through when attached so sensitivity in those mid to high frequency range are very limited. I seen a video of someone taking the casing off of one of the bass shakers and it looked like a pistonic jack hammer moving up and down attached to some type of plastic diaphragm and in turn it would pound the metal casing that it was enclosed in like a rubber mallet hitting a solid object to make a thud there fore vibrating the whole casing.
    Although this is not the Dayton Puck bass shaker I assume that the concept and design are fairly similar in most bass shakers. Bass Shaker Guts - YouTube

    Although the bass shaker can go lower then any commercially available exciter today IMO its bass is not as refined or articulate as a exciter.
    If I use 2 DAEX30HESF-4 with a sub amp it can play just as loud as the Dayton puck exciter but it wont reach as low as it starts to drop off at around 40hz.
    I'm pretty sure I have a DAEX30HESF-4 I can play around with. I remember it being one of my favorites among the exciters I tried a few years ago. I certainly don't remember it reaching anywhere near 40hz though...I'll obviously need to try some new surfaces/materials. What material and size were you using that let it get that low?

    This thread is making me excited to dig out the little transducer collection that I haven't played with in quite a while. I think the cheaper DAEX25FHE-4 was suprisingly decent for the price...and it looks like it might sound similar to the Thruster/DAEX32EP-4 albeit at 24w VS 40w power-handling.
    I remember being pretty underwhelmed with the much more expensive DAEX25SHF-4 (though I don't think it was $40 when I bought it). I thought the HDN-8 was kinda garbage and didn't care much for the "SquareFrame" models I tried for whatever that's worth.

    EDIT: Looks like I still have;
    DAEX30HESF-4 (easily the most robust-looking of any fullrange exciter I've tried, with thicker tinsel leads and reinforced connection to voicecoil),
    DAEX25FHE-4 (looks like a cheaper 30HESF-4, but seems to lack some of the HESF's sensitivity and also might lack some of the HESF's bass and treble),
    DAEX25SHF-4 (still looks cheaper and more fragile than the HESF and mostly just sounds louder in the mid-frequency...like a louder 25FHE at 4X the price),
    DAEX58FP (sounds better than I remember and no exposed+delicate tinsel. Thought it was a little quiet but then realized it's 8ohm...not bad).
    I think the HDN-8 and coin-type low watt exciter I had broke. If I remember right, the HDN-8 partly fried (pushed a little too hard when it never got nearly loud enough) and the coin-type got slightly torn/damaged trying to seperate it from a surface it was stuck against with its strong adhesive.
    Last edited by LOUT; 07-14-2021, 08:24 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Unbiasedsound
    replied
    The Dayton Puck Bass shaker is fully enclosed in some sort of metallic casing but its not air tight so some mid to highs can leak out in free air but not so much when attached to a material. So basically the whole casing vibrates you can put either side to the panel and it will vibrate the panel. Unlike a exciter in which it only vibrates on one side were the plastic is attached to the voice coil.

    The metallic casing is to dense for high frequencies to pass through when attached so sensitivity in those mid to high frequency range are very limited. I seen a video of someone taking the casing off of one of the bass shakers and it looked like a pistonic jack hammer moving up and down attached to some type of plastic diaphragm and in turn it would pound the metal casing that it was enclosed in like a rubber mallet hitting a solid object to make a thud there fore vibrating the whole casing.

    Although this is not the Dayton Puck bass shaker I assume that the concept and design are fairly similar in most bass shakers. Bass Shaker Guts - YouTube

    Although the bass shaker can go lower then any commercially available exciter today IMO its bass is not as refined or articulate as a exciter.

    If I use 2 DAEX30HESF-4 with a sub amp it can play just as loud as the Dayton puck exciter but it wont reach as low as it starts to drop off at around 40hz.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kornbread
    replied
    Originally posted by LOUT View Post
    I finally got around to trying a BST-2 BassShaker attached to a large remnant of XPS (nearly 4ftX6ft, 1/2inch). It was attached off-center around 2feet from one end and maybe 1.5feet from the adjacent side. I tried holding it up by the driver (which seemed to work decently), holding it up by an edge of the XPS (which also worked alright but could be finicky, likely due to the tenuous attachement of the driver to the panel) and tried setting it down resting against surfaces while trying to avoid rattles a couple of different ways (which still tended to rattle at higher volume).

    I didn't take the time to hang it from the ceiling nor did I take the time to glue/tape the shaker's face to the panel, I just used some course threaded screws and gentle tightening. I'm pretty sure some double-sided adhesive along with bolts+washers or similar backing/support material for the screws to hold more firmly and a proper method of suspension would allow the amp/driver to push harder without rattling or otherwise misbehaving...but I wasn't really prepared for anything long-term and this was more just a quick curiosity.

    Soundwise, it seemed to push a lot deeper/lower and louder bass than any fullrange transducers I've tried, so I think a BassShaker (like the BST-2) could be a viable way to add lows to a DML-only setup. The bass seemed more directional than I'm used to experiencing, where facing the panel from the sides instead of the front/back was noticeably quieter...maybe a positive or a negative depending on the situation.
    Overall though, I think a small-ish conventional subwoofer still reaches noticeably deeper and louder while taking up less space...at least compared to the BST-2 and XPS. Considering the price similarity between a 1/2" 4x4sheet of cheap plywood and a $35 SD215-88 VS a 4x8sheet of material and a $25-50 shaker, I feel like the shaker+panel route probably only makes sense in a few niche situations or when aiming specifically for a DML-only setup. I could easily be wrong though, particularly if a different material and/or BassShaker performs significantly better without getting super expensive nor huge.


    Bit of a sidenote that was probably obvious to others but not to me; although the BST-2 gives a surprisingly balanced volume of fullrange sound in free air, attaching it to a panel does NOT seem to increase its mid/high-frequency output by much (unlike fullrange transducers which get a fairly fullrange boost when attached VS free-air)...I'm assuming the mids/highs from the BST-2 are mostly the bits that escape the internal driver's attachment to the metal shell without causing enough vibration to move the shell or an attached panel enough to act like a fullrange DML?
    In short, the BassShaker doesn't seem to give a full-range sound and instead focuses on lows..."Duh", I know, but probably doesn't hurt to mention.
    Interesting. I had wondered about using a bass shaker on a large panel. Try solidly attaching the back of the bass shaker to something solid so it has something to push/pull from. Also try them close to the wall and see if that makes any changes.

    Leave a comment:


  • badfish
    replied
    Originally posted by Unbiasedsound View Post

    Oh my bad the Ultra is better then the Thruster in terms of sound quality, I thought it was a Q and not a U lol. The only reason why I dont recommend the Ultra is that there have been a lot of reliability issues with that exciter hopefully by now that problem is fixed.

    Exciters run full range so there strong suit is in vocals , guitars, strings, pianos but can get a bit shouty on certain tracks. If using EQ reduce the 1khz and 2khz to reduce shout.
    Awesome thanks again. Really enjoying the process which is the main thing. Hoping to have some new panels by early August and will report back.

    Leave a comment:


  • Unbiasedsound
    replied
    Originally posted by badfish View Post

    Thanks for the great feedback and all the info you've posted in the past. Taking notes!

    So the DAEX32-EP would be better than the 32EXU (the ultra) in this case? I'll have to read up on what a thruster exciter is. I have the 32U on order, but it's back ordered and the thruster is the same price.

    I have a sub incoming too to help on the low end side.

    Was sitting around last night probably reading this forum and radioparadise played some live acoustics including Over Now by Alice in Chains which sounded very good on my presently not top tier panels. Was pretty inspired - they seem as many have stated to really shine when you have lots of textured guitars / strings and vocals and when I considered they cost me 35 CAD each, that added another layer.

    Cheers
    Oh my bad the Ultra is better then the Thruster in terms of sound quality, I thought it was a Q and not a U lol. The only reason why I dont recommend the Ultra is that there have been a lot of reliability issues with that exciter hopefully by now that problem is fixed.

    Exciters run full range so there strong suit is in vocals , guitars, strings, pianos but can get a bit shouty on certain tracks. If using EQ reduce the 1khz and 2khz to reduce shout.

    Leave a comment:


  • LOUT
    replied
    I finally got around to trying a BST-2 BassShaker attached to a large remnant of XPS (nearly 4ftX6ft, 1/2inch). It was attached off-center around 2feet from one end and maybe 1.5feet from the adjacent side. I tried holding it up by the driver (which seemed to work decently), holding it up by an edge of the XPS (which also worked alright but could be finicky, likely due to the tenuous attachement of the driver to the panel) and tried setting it down resting against surfaces while trying to avoid rattles a couple of different ways (which still tended to rattle at higher volume).

    I didn't take the time to hang it from the ceiling nor did I take the time to glue/tape the shaker's face to the panel, I just used some course threaded screws and gentle tightening. I'm pretty sure some double-sided adhesive along with bolts+washers or similar backing/support material for the screws to hold more firmly and a proper method of suspension would allow the amp/driver to push harder without rattling or otherwise misbehaving...but I wasn't really prepared for anything long-term and this was more just a quick curiosity.

    Soundwise, it seemed to push a lot deeper/lower and louder bass than any fullrange transducers I've tried, so I think a BassShaker (like the BST-2) could be a viable way to add lows to a DML-only setup. The bass seemed more directional than I'm used to experiencing, where facing the panel from the sides instead of the front/back was noticeably quieter...maybe a positive or a negative depending on the situation.
    Overall though, I think a small-ish conventional subwoofer still reaches noticeably deeper and louder while taking up less space...at least compared to the BST-2 and XPS. Considering the price similarity between a 1/2" 4x4sheet of cheap plywood and a $35 SD215-88 VS a 4x8sheet of material and a $25-50 shaker, I feel like the shaker+panel route probably only makes sense in a few niche situations or when aiming specifically for a DML-only setup. I could easily be wrong though, particularly if a different material and/or BassShaker performs significantly better without getting super expensive nor huge.


    Bit of a sidenote that was probably obvious to others but not to me; although the BST-2 gives a surprisingly balanced volume of fullrange sound in free air, attaching it to a panel does NOT seem to increase its mid/high-frequency output by much (unlike fullrange transducers which get a fairly fullrange boost when attached VS free-air)...I'm assuming the mids/highs from the BST-2 are mostly the bits that escape the internal driver's attachment to the metal shell without causing enough vibration to move the shell or an attached panel enough to act like a fullrange DML?
    In short, the BassShaker doesn't seem to give a full-range sound and instead focuses on lows..."Duh", I know, but probably doesn't hurt to mention.

    Leave a comment:

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