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  • Dayton Audio 4.5mH 18 AWG I Core Inductor Crossover Coil (parts-express.com) Around $7.00 each. and the caps is around $1.00 at 35uf.

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    • Didn't look long enough. Found them on their site. Cost looks very reasonable for 18 gauge laminated core in the size I need.

      Edit, didn't see your post when I wrote this. Thank you for posting the link.
      Last edited by allenb; 12-29-2021, 05:19 PM.

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      • Also if you want to upgrade the electrolytic capacitor I have found that "BY PASS" caps work very well with electrolytic caps. I use either 0.01 or 0.1. Entry level Jantzen cross cap and or Audyn cap q4 will increase clarity and detail.

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        • Originally posted by Unbiasedsound View Post
          Also if you want to upgrade the electrolytic capacitor I have found that "BY PASS" caps work very well with electrolytic caps. I use either 0.01 or 0.1. Entry level Jantzen cross cap and or Audyn cap q4 will increase clarity and detail.
          I haven't found how to get email notifications when a post comes in so just now seeing your post.
          So you can hear the difference when using a film bypass cap. I've read lots where some claim no difference and others swear by it in crossovers. Were you able to do a AB comparison with quick switching back and forth and very noticeable or just very slight improvement that can be perceived only by golden ears?

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          • Here's my settings for notifications

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            • Originally posted by allenb View Post

              I haven't found how to get email notifications when a post comes in so just now seeing your post.
              So you can hear the difference when using a film bypass cap. I've read lots where some claim no difference and others swear by it in crossovers. Were you able to do a AB comparison with quick switching back and forth and very noticeable or just very slight improvement that can be perceived only by golden ears?
              From my own hands on experience I have found that capacitors actually color the sound in which in turn makes it sound different. Now in terms of is it "BETTER" is all personal preference and or based on ones design and application. IMO putting anything in the signal path to the driver will change the sound and the more components used the more the sound can change. I tried using a 0.01mh jantzen inductor on my small mid/high range panels just to see if the sound would change and it did. Then I added a 0.1uf jantzen cross cap to the 0.01mh jantzen inductor and the sound changed again.

              One does not need so called Golden ears to hear the changes you just have to listen critically and you will hear the difference just as long as nothing is wrong with your hearing to begin with. The differences between different caps can be subtle to night and day it all depends on each particular cap being compared. If one is not familiar with the sound signature of said capacitor then you will not be able to pick which cap is playing BUT you will KNOW if the sound has CHANGED.

              From my experiments combining by pass caps with NPE caps seem to blend well together and its cheaper then the larger value higher end caps. Some say the better the cap the more neutral it sounds which I do believe as it is less colored but no doubt colored to a lesser degree. NPE caps IMO sound neutral/balanced they just lack sophistication, clarity and detail like the higher end caps. This is where the "BY PASS" caps come into play as they will add that sophistication, clarity and detail to the NPE caps while remaining neutral/balanced sounding. Also not all by pass caps combine well with each other as you have to find the right blend or right combination as some caps when combined can smear the sound due to having different colorations.

              The caps I prefer and or the ones I have experience with are Jantzen and Audyn. The entry level Jantzen crosscap or Audyn q4 is a start. (0.1-0.01) as they are cheap just under 2 bucks. Higher end caps I prefer are Jantzen Z superior and Audyn plus.

              No offense but I dont like the sound of Dayton caps for my DML panels. lol



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              • Unbiasedsound
                Unbiasedsound commented
                Editing a comment
                The Audyn copper cap is friggen good IMO but its friggen EXPENSIVE!!!!!!!!!!! I must have lost my mind for a second to spend $55.00 on a pair of by pass 0.1 Audyn true copper caps. LOL

            • Great information on your experience with bypass caps, thanks for posting. When I get everything setup I'll start listening with the NPEs and then give the bypass caps a go for comparison. You are so right about personal preference and ones design and application! I chuckle when I read speaker reviews. As many know, change one thing, whether it be moving the couch or adding or taking away a rug in the listening area, going from one turntable cartridge to another can make speaker X sound great for one person and in their neighbors setup, sound barely passable. A lot of people never get it that the speaker system is only one piece of the whole delivery system and treat it as if what they hear is a mirror image to what everyone else will experience.

              BTW, I got an email showing there was a post in this thread!

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              • Tectonic BMR Speakers Before/After Audio Quality Difference in Underground Railway Station - YouTube

                Lets see if anyone can tell me why the BMR speaker is more intelligible then the conventional cone driver?

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                • Unbiasedsound
                  Unbiasedsound commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Did you get this from an article?

              • Can anyone tell me why the corners of a DML panel need to be rounded?

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                • LOUT
                  LOUT commented
                  Editing a comment
                  They do?
                  If so, to what minimum radius, or to what relatives?

                • Unbiasedsound
                  Unbiasedsound commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Where have you been lout this has been one of the main fundamental techniques of DML 101 said and used on many forums including this one.

              • Can anyone tell me why EPS needs to be sanded?

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                • Its sad when people dont even know the basic foundation questions of DML. On the DIYaudio forum they dont even know why the corners need to be rounded and that topic is 244 pages long. LOL

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                  • LOUT
                    LOUT commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Perhaps some simply disagree, or maybe they don't feel like answering/engaging at the time?
                    I literally don't know why DML corners "need" to be rounded, so in my case digging through 244pages would be a hindrance more than a boon.

                    I do feel like your specific questions here, if meant to act as teaching tools, should probably include a link to the whitepaper or thread or page detailing the reasoning behind the answer.

                    I also admit to automatically reading your questions here in a pretty condescending tone, so that might be making some people avoid engaging if they're having the same issue I am...though I'm not sure how you could change that because I'm not exactly a beacon of good communication.

                  • Unbiasedsound
                    Unbiasedsound commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I dont think many people visit this forum. Plus the title of this topic does not include the words DML so many will just pass it up.

                    There is no white paper on these basic fundamental techniques in designing a DML panel, unless I write my own white paper. lol

                    The problem is many do not understand these basic fundamental 101 techniques. One cant disagree if one does not know WHY each specific technique is done.

                    I dont think people arent engaging because of my condescending tone. In fact a condescending tone usually brings on a challenge. The problem is there are no challengers due to lack of participants aka forum members interested in DML and or lack the knowledge.

                    I follow the topic on the DIYaudio forum and its mind boggling the stuff they come up with as if these panels can defy physics because they dont even understand the fundamental basic steps in designing a DML panel. Including those that seem to be veterans on DML. One cant build on a weak foundation as everything built on top will eventually crumble. Once you get why the fundamental foundation techniques are used it will set you on the right path.

                    If you've been following my recent posts I have mentioned that these DML panels are very similar to conventional cone drivers as you cant defy certain physics.

                    My questions are to make people "THINK FOR THEMSELVES". Most people seem to like to "COPY" someone elses design instead of designing it themselves.

                    I am not concerned if anyone replies to my posts, its more to make one think and pounder on those questions and seek the truth for themselves.

                • Today I want to talk about a DML subwoofer. Just last week I decided to rebuild my DML subwoofer using a Dayton puck bass shaker. I bought the puck bass shaker about a year ago and experimented with it for a brief time but never really got around to making a final sub design for it.

                  All I have to say is WOW. lol These puck bass shakers are the key to DML low frequency bass. These wont play really loud or hit you in your chest like a conventional cone subwoofer but what they do is make very tight/accurate/articulate bass. If one DML sub is not enough I am sure TWO will do to satisfy one in the bass department.

                  How do you build one? Simple you just follow the basic fundamental steps of DML. OH WAIT yawl dont even know the basic fundamental steps? LMAO

                  This is why I cant stress enough the basic fundamentals of DML 101 because everything including a DML sub starts with the basic foundation techniques.

                  The Dayton puck bass shaker is now double the price it use to be just around a year ago. I was hesitant to post this info since the more people that buy this product the more the price will rise especially in todays time when inflation is at a all time high and still increasing. Its better to buy it now then wait 3 months when the price doubles again. LOL

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                  • Basic Do's and Donts of DML.

                    1. DML's should not be placed directly on the wall as sound radiates both from the front and back. Now if you modify a DML panel then you can place it on the wall, which is to enclose one side of the panel so that only one side radiates sound. Or you can place the panel directly INWALL.

                    2. Like with most conventional cone speakers a DML's height placement should be at around "EAR LEVEL". I see a lot of people hanging there DML panels very high up like surround sound speakers.

                    3. To sound its best DML's need to be at least a foot from the rear wall.

                    4. For my designs a "FRAME" is a must. I do NOT believe in hanging panels. Also a frame is needed to attach the spine brace to hold the exciter in place. Without a frame there is no were to attach the spine/brace on a free hanging panel.

                    5. The height of a DML panel should not be higher then your head when seated, unless you are sitting really far back. I see some people making there panels 8ft. tall in which it is to high for such a small room.
                    Last edited by Unbiasedsound; 03-22-2022, 01:54 AM.

                    Comment


                    • LOUT
                      LOUT commented
                      Editing a comment
                      I like this.
                      Easy-to-digest bulletpoints with helpful tips.
                      If someone disagrees for some reason or wants to know the "why" behind the tips, it can spark conversation.
                      Good stuff.

                  • Originally posted by Unbiasedsound View Post
                    Tectonic BMR Speakers Before/After Audio Quality Difference in Underground Railway Station - YouTube

                    Lets see if anyone can tell me why the BMR speaker is more intelligible then the conventional cone driver?
                    What causes conventional cone speakers to sound unintelligible in that underground railway station? Answering this question will give one a hint as to why DML/BMRS are more intelligible.

                    Comment


                    • LOUT
                      LOUT commented
                      Editing a comment
                      In that video/example, it appears the conventional drivers were spaced farther apart and the recording was taken from a more distant location while the BMR replacements were spaced much more frequently, allowing each to play at a lower level while keeping a more balanced/constant output volume for listeners. This also results in the microphone being noticeably closer to the nearest source.
                      You can still hear a lot of echo, so the BMR doesn't seem to help that, but getting the mic/listener closer to the source allows more of what's heard to be direct-VS-reflected.

                      In this example, I'm unsure if the BMR had an advantage in size/shape/price to allow this, or if it wasn't so much an advantage of the chosen BMRs as much as simply a better plan for the retrofit.

                      It would be interesting to hear a comparison against conventional fullrange drivers (properly EQed for low distortion) with similar output and spacing.

                    • Unbiasedsound
                      Unbiasedsound commented
                      Editing a comment
                      So are you just assuming what you think they did or is it actually what they did? Like the recording being taken from a ore distant location and or the conventional drivers being spaced further apart etc.?
                      Last edited by Unbiasedsound; 03-24-2022, 05:25 AM.

                  • Originally posted by Unbiasedsound View Post
                    What causes conventional cone speakers to sound unintelligible in that underground railway station? Answering this question will give one a hint as to why DML/BMRS are more intelligible.
                    Originally posted by LOUT View Post
                    In that video/example, it appears the conventional drivers were spaced farther apart and the recording was taken from a more distant location while the BMR replacements were spaced much more frequently, allowing each to play at a lower level while keeping a more balanced/constant output volume for listeners. This also results in the microphone being noticeably closer to the nearest source.
                    You can still hear a lot of echo, so the BMR doesn't seem to help that, but getting the mic/listener closer to the source allows more of what's heard to be direct-VS-reflected.

                    In this example, I'm unsure if the BMR had an advantage in size/shape/price to allow this, or if it wasn't so much an advantage of the chosen BMRs as much as simply a better plan for the retrofit.

                    It would be interesting to hear a comparison against conventional fullrange drivers (properly EQed for low distortion) with similar output and spacing.
                    Originally posted by Unbiasedsound View Post
                    So are you just assuming what you think they did or is it actually what they did? Like the recording being taken from a ore distant location and or the conventional drivers being spaced further apart etc.?
                    I only meant it "appeared" that way, because they failed to describe the older situation at all and didn't give a microphone position for either situation. I probably could've been clearer about that, but it sounds like you're already aware of the video's lack of information.
                    There's also a large volume difference between the examples, likely indicating the microphone was significantly farther from the source in the quieter example.
                    Did they share more details somewhere else?

                    Alternatively, do you have any other examples or maybe a more direct comparison under your own experience you can comment on?
                    Or is there an experiment folks can try "at home" to experience the differences you'd like to show?

                    If I have to drag a small amp and a small DML and small FR-cone-driver into an echo-y bathroom, I'm totally willing lol.
                    Last edited by LOUT; 03-24-2022, 02:03 PM.
                    My first 2way build

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                    • Unbiasedsound
                      Unbiasedsound commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Oh ok I just wanted to be sure as I thought maybe I missed something in the video that you found. lol
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