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  • Unbiasedsound
    replied
    Originally posted by SAC View Post
    More DML love

    I am building a set of 4 to hang from my kitchen ceiling. Using 2x2 XPS (I think?) combined with 1/8x8" round wood panels driven by DAEX25-SHFs and EQ'd with a DSP-408. Not sure about the amp/preamp yet as my old Cambridge Audio preamp seems to have bit the dust.

    Haven't figured out how to use REW yet so I just tuned the DSP-408 with a calibrated mic. The stock sound was very "nasal" with not much top end.... very strong from maybe 2K-8K with big rolloff from there. I got the sweep to be mostly flat, then made some more changes to taste (it was still a little too sibilant) using the harsher reference tracks I had (most of the tracks from Steely Dan's "Gaucho"). Overall I am pleased with the sound, though one thing that was a bit disorienting was the complete lack of a soundstage. The room is just filled with sound, with pretty vague channel separation. Given that these are gonna be on the ceiling I figure that is fine. They sound great otherwise.
    Damping is a DML panels best friend. You can use Frost king weather strip foam tape on all 4 sides of the panel. If you look at this video you will see the white foam all around the DML panel.

    Bertagni Electroacoustic SM 80 Flat Panel Speakers - YouTube

    Leave a comment:


  • SAC
    replied
    More DML love

    I am building a set of 4 to hang from my kitchen ceiling. Using 2x2 XPS (I think?) combined with 1/8x8" round wood panels driven by DAEX25-SHFs and EQ'd with a DSP-408. Not sure about the amp/preamp yet as my old Cambridge Audio preamp seems to have bit the dust.

    Haven't figured out how to use REW yet so I just tuned the DSP-408 with a calibrated mic. The stock sound was very "nasal" with not much top end.... very strong from maybe 2K-8K with big rolloff from there. I got the sweep to be mostly flat, then made some more changes to taste (it was still a little too sibilant) using the harsher reference tracks I had (most of the tracks from Steely Dan's "Gaucho"). Overall I am pleased with the sound, though one thing that was a bit disorienting was the complete lack of a soundstage. The room is just filled with sound, with pretty vague channel separation. Given that these are gonna be on the ceiling I figure that is fine. They sound great otherwise.

    Leave a comment:


  • Unbiasedsound
    replied
    How To Build "The World's Best Speakers" - Are Flat Panel Speakers Really Any Good? - YouTube If you look into 12:40 of that vid you can see the magnet as well as the pink panels moving back and forth, this is the reason why a spine is needed to support the magnet so it has the spine to push off of and transfer all its force into the pink panel diaphragm. Without a spline with the volume turned up on heavy bass tracks the magnet without a spine will rattle because there is no support of the magnet. This rattling is caused by the weight of the magnet moving in which I believe can cause voice coil damage in the long run if playing at loud volumes with a lot of bass. You can clearly see the exciter moving in pistonic motion as the thruster exciter as well as other high powered heavy duty exciters can go into pistonic motion if driven hard enough that is why I recommend using a sub amp to push the exciter into pistonic motion as there sensitivity starts to drop like a rock below 100hz. Smaller the exciter the less pistonic motion, while the larger exciters have more pistonic motion. Any exciter under 19mm will not have any bass.

    The common misconception is that exciters are not pistonic which is not true. In the low frequency spectrum they become pistonic but in the mid to highs they become modal in motion. Its just that the exciters are not efficient in the low frequencies due to the heavy plastic attached to the voice coil in which is needed to support the magnets weight as well as the heavy dml diaphragm that is why a panel needs to be light and thin. A BMR driver does not need a heavy plastic so the light voice coil is attached directly to the light diaphragm making the pistonic motion just as effecient as the higher frequencies for a more balanced sound. Also a BMR drivers magnet is supported by a frame in which it holds it in place like a spine. Most people dont realize a BMR is basically a DML exciter but using a slightly different design.

    I just finished building my newest/latest design and this is one of my best satellite panels to date but I am working on another design and hopefully it will be just as good or better. Oh my bad just rambling. lol

    Leave a comment:


  • Unbiasedsound
    replied
    The pink 2X2ft. XPS panels are usually the beginners intro design into DML technology. The DAEX32Q-8 is one of the worst exciters when it comes to the higher frequencies. Sound quality is based off of ones design and most beginners design dont sound even as good as entry level conventional cone driver speakers as your B652 will sound better. EQ should be used to fine tune ones panels as it wont make a terrible sounding panel into a good sounding panel.

    Thats not XPS, its EPS. XPS is usually pink or blue in color known as Extruded polystyrene while EPS is usually white and known as Expanded polystyrene. There are various densities of XPS and EPS ranging from very soft to very hard. under 1lbs and 1lbs-5lbs densities. Lower density equals lighter panels while higher densities equals heavier panels. Ideal density is not at either ends of she spectrum but rather in the middle. When a panel becomes to dense efficiency is lowered but if a panel doesnt have enough density it will lack the higher frequencies. There's compromises to make. Size and Thickness of a panel also come into play as well as the type of exciter used as not all exciters are created equally. Other factors include hanging of panels or using a frame to support panels like a bookshelf or floor standard speakers. Exciter placement on the panel is also another factor. Shape of panels makes a difference. The most accurate sounding panel shape is a square followed by a rectangle, but the rectangle should not be too long as the longer the rectangle the more exaggerated and weird it will sound due to physics. DML panels are very sensitive to changes anything touching the panel can change the sound. There are so many methods and techniques that the designs are almost endless.

    I mentioned to Listencarefully about which exciter I thought sounded good and the panel density , size , shape and thickness.

    Leave a comment:


  • SAC
    replied
    Hey everybody

    I'm trying to build some DML panels to hang from my kitchen ceiling in combo with a Dayton 10" sub. I mainly listen to jazz, funk and old rock. My current setup is built around B652 AIRs but those have to go. I got DAEX32Q-8exciters to use with 2x2 XPS panels. Problem is they sound terrible. I haven't measured them but they just have very low sensitivity and absolutely no top end. Do all DMLs need extensive post EQing, or do these particular exciters suck? If so what do people recommend?

    I saw someone above had good luck with thinner + higher weight XPS... is that something I should try? I've seen a lot of people do the 2x2' panels I've done.

    Leave a comment:


  • Unbiasedsound
    replied
    Originally posted by Dukk View Post

    I will have to have a look for them to be sure but I believe they are NXT branded. It looks like there is a similar set on ebay.ca right now.
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cd-x8-New-U...AAAOSw9jte~494

    Its the Teac brand but licensed by NXT

    Leave a comment:


  • listencarefully
    commented on 's reply
    That makes a lot of sense. I have been going back and forth between two amps. I have a Pyle PTAU55 and a LP-2020TI. the Lepai is cleaner but puts out more bass so it makes the speakers sound dull. They Pyle has a brighter sound but has a slight background hiss. May need to find a more suitable amp. Suggestions?

  • Dukk
    replied
    Originally posted by Unbiasedsound View Post

    Those NXT flat panel speakers you own are they directly from NXT or licensed by NXT for the Teac brand?
    I will have to have a look for them to be sure but I believe they are NXT branded. It looks like there is a similar set on ebay.ca right now.

    Leave a comment:


  • Unbiasedsound
    replied
    Originally posted by listencarefully View Post
    Ok. I couldn't wait and finished up the speakers today. :-)

    I painted one side and then put them in the picture frames. I didn't get fancy... just used the metal tabs to hold the panels in the frames. They are nice an snug.

    Then I tested different locations for the exciters. That was great advice because I could definitely hear the difference as I moved them away from center. You could actually hear the sound getting tighter. I settled on a location that I felt sounded good for each speaker then marked the location with a sharpie.

    Click image for larger version

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    I hooked them up to my amp (unfortunately my LP-2020TI is having some issues). First played them stand alone then with my Sub. These are much different than my XPS panels. Much smoother and more mid-range.

    Here is a picture of them hooked up to the sub on my bench.

    Click image for larger version

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    How do they sound?? In a word "FANTASTIC!!" The sound I am getting out of these things is unbelievable!

    Can't thank you enough Unbiasedsound for walking me through this!
    Also you can add EQ and or DSP to further enhance the sound of your panels. DML's can have some midrange shout so using EQ can help. Reduce the 500hz band and this will reduce shout and bring out treble. Most exciters frequency response starts to drop off at around 16khz so you can boost 2db.

    Leave a comment:


  • Unbiasedsound
    replied
    Originally posted by Dukk View Post
    Nice work! Back 20 years ago I worked at an electronics retailer and we had a set of the Wharfedale Picture Speakers in a sound room. They came in a picture frame and were advertised such that people could indeed put a picture in them for true stealth tunes (they came with a hideaway woofer). IIRC they licensed the tech from NXT. I never bought a set as they were $$$ but did pick up (and still have) a set of NXT flat panel speakers that are about the size of a pair of smartphones. Neat tech indeed!
    Those NXT flat panel speakers you own are they directly from NXT or licensed by NXT for the Teac brand?

    Leave a comment:


  • listencarefully
    commented on 's reply
    Love them! Been geeking out on them for the past 2 days. Totally exceeded my expectations!

  • Unbiasedsound
    commented on 's reply
    You're welcome. Glad you like them.

  • listencarefully
    commented on 's reply
    This is a great idea! You mentioned that a TEAX25C10-8/SP 25mm High Power 8 Ohm Frog Exciter 10W is suitable as a sub exciter. That is a 10W exciter.

    What watt sub amp would be needed? Would the Dayton SA25 25W work for that purpose?

  • Dukk
    replied
    Nice work! Back 20 years ago I worked at an electronics retailer and we had a set of the Wharfedale Picture Speakers in a sound room. They came in a picture frame and were advertised such that people could indeed put a picture in them for true stealth tunes (they came with a hideaway woofer). IIRC they licensed the tech from NXT. I never bought a set as they were $$$ but did pick up (and still have) a set of NXT flat panel speakers that are about the size of a pair of smartphones. Neat tech indeed!

    Leave a comment:


  • listencarefully
    replied
    Ok. I couldn't wait and finished up the speakers today. :-)

    I painted one side and then put them in the picture frames. I didn't get fancy... just used the metal tabs to hold the panels in the frames. They are nice an snug.

    Then I tested different locations for the exciters. That was great advice because I could definitely hear the difference as I moved them away from center. You could actually hear the sound getting tighter. I settled on a location that I felt sounded good for each speaker then marked the location with a sharpie.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	Exciters.jpg
Views:	1840
Size:	53.4 KB
ID:	1454798

    I hooked them up to my amp (unfortunately my LP-2020TI is having some issues). First played them stand alone then with my Sub. These are much different than my XPS panels. Much smoother and more mid-range.

    Here is a picture of them hooked up to the sub on my bench.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_3989.jpg
Views:	1663
Size:	50.3 KB
ID:	1454799

    How do they sound?? In a word "FANTASTIC!!" The sound I am getting out of these things is unbelievable!

    Can't thank you enough Unbiasedsound for walking me through this!

    Leave a comment:

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