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Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

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  • #46
    Re: Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

    Here's where I'm at currently. 25 Hz L-R 24dB/Oct hi pass filter:

    EQ, left channelClick image for larger version

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    EQ, right channelClick image for larger version

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    Measured frequency response at listening seat, L-R
    Click image for larger version

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    Comparison to my older F-R plot
    Click image for larger version

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    Only albums like Daft Punk's Random Access Memories can bottom them out.
    Line Array: IDS-25 Clone, FE-83.
    2-2.5 Way:
    Zaph Audio's winning entry: ZA5+SB29. - Microliths: RS125+RS28. - Small Bangs: TB W4-1658SB+SEAS 27TBFC/G. - Monoliths: Peerless 830884+SEAS 27TBFC/G.
    3-3.5 Way:Miniliths: SEAS P21/CA21REX+Neo8 PDR+Neo3 PDR. - Megaliths: 2xDayton RS270+2xT-B W4-1337SB+SB29. - ZDT3.5 +: 2xDayton RS180+Dayton RS52+Vifa DQ25. Reflexos: OB 4xDayton RS150 + Neo3 PDR.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

      Originally posted by fjhuerta View Post
      I'm getting there! I still wonder about a sub. I guess sooner rather than later I'll add it.

      Will you build your version? I'm curious!
      Heck yeah!!! I have been temporarily occupied with building DML flat panels. Was supposed to be a quick little experiment to build panels to hang on the wall and possibly a larger full-range panel that I could setup in our living room and and tear down quickly and carry away when not listening to music. Well... the panels are interesting and have been really fun to play with AND listen too... good, sensitive, transparent sounding panels for an absolutely ridiculous price. I'm just having too much fun right now...

      But I have nearly enough for a full line like your but I have always intending to use open baffle bass bins with my array (which would also be OB) so I think I will build a shorter array as they won't be asked to play low bass. My listening room is fairly small so I can get away with a shorter line just fine (while playing with the DML panels I noticed that even a 30in tall panel acted like a line array out to about 7 feet. So even a 10 driver/side array I should work perfectly fine in my situation).

      Kills me to hear how good these sound and still no line array for me... I'm jealous!! Enjoy them and keep us updated as they continue to break in and you get accustomed to listening to the array and draw more conclusions on how they compare to traditional 2/3 ways! Open baffle changed listening to music for me. So I hope that OB + Line arrays might be the final destination for music nirvana!!

      Cheers!
      Last edited by rmeinke; 01-19-2015, 01:11 PM.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

        An OB would be incredibly great with these drivers. I can imagine how the benefits of an OB (clean midrange, open an airy highs) would combine with the immense soundstage of the line arrays.

        Re: the subwoofer issue. After listening to every kind of music with the arrays, I've decided I'll add a sub. Reasons being, simulations tell me that if I cross over at 80 Hz I should have at least 115 dB of very clean output everywhere. The drivers are being forced to perform at frequencies they shouldn't. Although classical, small ensembles, acoustic music and jazz lovers would probably get by without a sub, I listen to rock and electronic music at high levels. The 3" woofers can keep up until a point, but distortion is too readily apparent after a certain level. It's either that or cutting off bass response too high for my taste.

        So, a sub will take care of everything. The speakers may even sound better by not playing bass.

        From simulations, I can see I could get by with a single 15" driver with at least 18 mm Xmax.

        Interestingly enough... my Adire Audio Tempest seems competitive with at least the Titanic MKIII. I can imagine that by corner loading it I'll get a couple of free extra dB's. I'll use the MiniDSP advanced crossover plugin (delays, extra crossover filters and 2 stage parametric filters are far better than the basic plug-in offerings) and see if I can integrate the sub to the towers. If I can, I'll buy a Titanic MKIV or an UltiMax sub later on.
        Line Array: IDS-25 Clone, FE-83.
        2-2.5 Way:
        Zaph Audio's winning entry: ZA5+SB29. - Microliths: RS125+RS28. - Small Bangs: TB W4-1658SB+SEAS 27TBFC/G. - Monoliths: Peerless 830884+SEAS 27TBFC/G.
        3-3.5 Way:Miniliths: SEAS P21/CA21REX+Neo8 PDR+Neo3 PDR. - Megaliths: 2xDayton RS270+2xT-B W4-1337SB+SB29. - ZDT3.5 +: 2xDayton RS180+Dayton RS52+Vifa DQ25. Reflexos: OB 4xDayton RS150 + Neo3 PDR.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

          I'll say this Javi... you like to rock my freind. And when your done that will be a beast of a system!!! Pro level output with audiophile pedigree!

          Yes, absolutely... by relieving the line from playing mid/low bass you would ought to get a noticeably more refined presentation through the entire audio spectrum. Nice to play them full-range and impressive to see I imagine but if you cross them low you will have a better speaker AND the output.

          Man, I'm in a different galaxy brother. I'm listening to a pair of 24" x 30" flat panels right now and totally enjoying them. :-)

          Enjoy those beasts and keep us posted!!!

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

            As a newbie, I was just wondering...if a line array like yours was built into a wall, what would be the effect on the bass response (say to 20Hz)?

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

              Uneven boost in the bass I'd say..

              Right now I'm still amazed at how a pair of RS270s, ported at 22 Hz on a 200L enclosure, side by side of the array can do this...Click image for larger version

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              At 110 dB output, 1M:eek:

              And, manage this frequency response.

              Click image for larger version

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              OH GOD, YES!!!!
              Line Array: IDS-25 Clone, FE-83.
              2-2.5 Way:
              Zaph Audio's winning entry: ZA5+SB29. - Microliths: RS125+RS28. - Small Bangs: TB W4-1658SB+SEAS 27TBFC/G. - Monoliths: Peerless 830884+SEAS 27TBFC/G.
              3-3.5 Way:Miniliths: SEAS P21/CA21REX+Neo8 PDR+Neo3 PDR. - Megaliths: 2xDayton RS270+2xT-B W4-1337SB+SB29. - ZDT3.5 +: 2xDayton RS180+Dayton RS52+Vifa DQ25. Reflexos: OB 4xDayton RS150 + Neo3 PDR.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

                Originally posted by Adam_G View Post
                My mini-array has to be paired with a subwoofer, I've only got 8 per side, so the output below 100hz or so rolls off rapidly. I've got the sub crossed over at 90hz (as low as this one will go) and it pairs up very nicely!
                [ATTACH=CONFIG]53756[/ATTACH]
                This is what I've found myself playing around with these. right now i have 6 per side and theyre blending with stereo subs pretty nicely. did you do anything for BSC?

                Originally posted by fjhuerta View Post
                Here's where I'm at currently. 25 Hz L-R 24dB/Oct hi pass filter:

                EQ, left channel[ATTACH=CONFIG]53767[/ATTACH]

                EQ, right channel[ATTACH=CONFIG]53768[/ATTACH]

                Measured frequency response at listening seat, L-R
                [ATTACH=CONFIG]53769[/ATTACH]

                Comparison to my older F-R plot
                [ATTACH=CONFIG]53770[/ATTACH]

                Only albums like Daft Punk's Random Access Memories can bottom them out.
                that's a lot of eq down low. at volume do they "muddy" at all? loving your write up.

                Originally posted by Baby Huey View Post
                As a newbie, I was just wondering...if a line array like yours was built into a wall, what would be the effect on the bass response (say to 20Hz)?
                with these drivers i dont think you could get down to 20hz. imho a pair or more of subs built into the arrays would do a far better job at volume.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

                  Hello VegaMan, look at the measurements above by Javi... nothing short of spectacular at ALL frequencies don't you agree! They can play very close to 20Hz as demonstrated but at what levels is the question. For me and the music and levels I listen at I could easily use these to 20Hz with absolutely no issues whats-o-ever... with VERY LOW distortion levels. Not that I would want to, not much music at those frequencies so more of a check box in a technical spec column than anything.

                  The thought of using full-range drivers covering the entire range in an thin column is very interesting... bass coming out of such a small a$$ cabinet has to be mind blowing.

                  Brilliant design and execution!!!
                  Last edited by rmeinke; 01-18-2015, 04:10 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

                    Originally posted by rmeinke View Post
                    Hello VegaMan, look at the measurements above by Javi... nothing short of spectacular at ALL frequencies don't you agree! They can play very close to 20Hz as demonstrated but at what levels is the question. For me and the music and levels I listen at I could easily use these to 20Hz with absolutely no issues whats-o-ever... with VERY LOW distortion levels. Not that I would want to, not much music at those frequencies so more of a check box in a technical spec column than anything.

                    The thought of using full-range drivers covering the entire range in an thin column is very interesting... bass coming out of such a small a$$ cabinet has to be mind blowing.

                    Brilliant design and execution!!!
                    Given the measurements (and the fantastic write up) I do agree the execution is very well done. I like the idea of using full rangers to cover the spectrum like that, which is why i pop into these threads. I'm not sure 20hz is realistic though, 35hz - 40hz seems to be the limit given the FR plot in post #46

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

                      I don't understand why you guys are so insistent on forcing these arrays to play the full frequency spectrum. Because of the non-directionality of the lower frequencies, there should be no problem seamlessly integrating one or more subwoofers into the system. Why force these small drivers to do what they were not designed for and introduce distortion and other problems into the process.

                      You can probably fit a round peg into a square hole by beating enough on it, but why would you?
                      Last edited by thekorvers; 01-19-2015, 01:29 PM. Reason: grammar
                      “I cried because I had no shoes until I met a man who had no feet”

                      If we all did the things we are capable of doing, we would literally ASTOUND ourselves - Thomas A. Edison

                      Some people collect stamps, Imelda Marcos collected shoes. I collect speakers.:D

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

                        Originally posted by thekorvers View Post
                        I don't understand why you guys are so insistent on forcing these arrays play the full frequency spectrum. Because of the non-directionality of the lower frequencies, there should be no problem seamlessly integrating one or more subwoofers into the system. Why force these small drivers to do what they were not designed for and introduce distortion and other problems into the process.

                        You can probably fit a round peg into a square hole by beating enough on it, but why would you?
                        I can't speak for everyone, but I think it's just because it's possible. Testing the limits of a system, having some FUN with it!

                        My mini-arrays only get down to about 100hz with any authority, the tactile effect of the arrays is unique in their range. They don't radiate like other systems. I haven't witnessed real bass from an array yet, but the midbass is absolutely fantastic. I could add EQ to get the response down towards 60hz, but then I'd limit my ultimate SPL of the system, so I just don't bother.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

                          Originally posted by VegaMan View Post
                          Given the measurements (and the fantastic write up) I do agree the execution is very well done. I like the idea of using full rangers to cover the spectrum like that, which is why i pop into these threads. I'm not sure 20hz is realistic though, 35hz - 40hz seems to be the limit given the FR plot in post #46
                          I am with you, Vega... I would high pass them around 35Hz with my Behringer DCX2496 If I were to listen to them full-range. There is very little musical content below that for the music that I listen to.

                          Hope to get going on my (smaller) line soon and after looking at what Javi has done I'm pretty pumped to get going.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

                            Originally posted by thekorvers View Post
                            I don't understand why you guys are so insistent on forcing these arrays to play the full frequency spectrum. Because of the non-directionality of the lower frequencies, there should be no problem seamlessly integrating one or more subwoofers into the system. Why force these small drivers to do what they were not designed for and introduce distortion and other problems into the process.

                            You can probably fit a round peg into a square hole by beating enough on it, but why would you?
                            Hey thekorvers,
                            No one is insisting. Javi has stated that he is implementing a sub and I have personally always intended to use a OB sub with the OB line array as stated earlier in this thread. Not for max output reasons i can assure you.

                            You have misunderstood my posts. Javi wants to listen at 110db(!!) which is out of this world compared to the listening levels I typically enjoy music at... mainly Jazz and acoustic music which has very little real content below 35Hz. Most folks do NOT have such output requirements nor NEED to design systems that play uber cleanly at 110db and down to 20Hz. Why in the world would you construct such a capable system when it is not NEEDED??? That is my point.

                            I'm listening to the Cowboy Junkies as I type. Max SPL level... 72.6dB.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

                              Originally posted by rmeinke View Post
                              Hey thekorvers,
                              No one is insisting. Javi has stated that he is implementing a sub and I have personally always intended to use a OB sub with the OB line array as stated earlier in this thread. Not for max output reasons i can assure you.

                              You have misunderstood my posts. Javi wants to listen at 110db(!!) which is out of this world compared to the listening levels I typically enjoy music at... mainly Jazz and acoustic music which has very little real content below 35Hz. Most folks do NOT have such output requirements nor NEED to design systems that play uber cleanly at 110db and down to 20Hz. Why in the world would you construct such a capable system when it is not NEEDED??? That is my point.

                              I'm listening to the Cowboy Junkies as I type. Max SPL level... 72.6dB.
                              I understand your reasoning. If you are happy with your array as is, who am I to say you should do otherwise? I am not one to dictate what you should do. As long as YOU are satisfied. You can always add a subwoofer(s) later if you decide you want more lower base. I just wanted to give my opinion on this as there was some question in the earlier posts as to whether a subwoofer would properly integrate with an array. IMO it is far more detrimental to the overall SQ of the system to force these drivers to reproduce low frequencies with authority than to task subwoofers to do so. Obviously in a HT setup, there is not much choice, subwoofers will be required.
                              “I cried because I had no shoes until I met a man who had no feet”

                              If we all did the things we are capable of doing, we would literally ASTOUND ourselves - Thomas A. Edison

                              Some people collect stamps, Imelda Marcos collected shoes. I collect speakers.:D

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

                                Originally posted by thekorvers View Post
                                I understand your reasoning. If you are happy with your array as is, who am I to say you should do otherwise? I am not one to dictate what you should do. As long as YOU are satisfied. You can always add a subwoofer(s) later if you decide you want more lower base. I just wanted to give my opinion on this as there was some question in the earlier posts as to whether a subwoofer would properly integrate with an array. IMO it is far more detrimental to the overall SQ of the system to force these drivers to reproduce low frequencies with authority than to task subwoofers to do so. Obviously in a HT setup, there is not much choice, subwoofers will be required.
                                Hey Korvers,
                                I'm planning to build a smaller open baffle array so I *will* be using a pair of bass bins with my lines... absolutely required in that situation of course. My room is pretty small and don't need the output so a small line will be fine for my purposes. Looking forward to listening to an OB line array. Just have to try harder to put the DML panels aside and get my lazy, music listening a$$ down in the shop. Easier said then done.

                                Have you tried a set of DML panels yet? They are really interesting to listen to... addicting actually. I LOVE my OB's and think they are technically better but there is just something about these damn panels...

                                Comment

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