Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

[oneplustwo]

Re: Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

Thanks for your comments! I'll probably get the same Vifas Roger Russell used.

Are you going to get those because you think they will perform better in other ways beyond the bass characteristics then? And if so, what areas? I'm still in a holding pattern waiting for my house renovation before pulling the trigger, but it does seem like the value of the Founteks are hard to beat. So I'm wondering if the Vifas are worth the extra coin. If anything, I may have enough time to wait for you to actually build these and tell me definitively which to go with!

[fjhuerta]

Re: Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

Thanks for your comments! I'll probably get the same Vifas Roger Russell used.

Still, there's a last thing I did before selling them. I was wondering how could Roger Russell's IDS-25 could get to 20 Hz while my speakers theoretically could... but with major distortion.

So, I simulated 25 Founteks vs. 25 Vifas on Bassbox. See how could the Vifas play so much louder than the Founteks.

Results.

They are 1 or 2 dB's louder. No more. Neither speaker can get to 20 Hz above 93 or so dBs. They all reach XMax, and I assume, start distorting like crazy.

My best SWAGs. Roger used the speakers closer to corners. Roger was playing the speakers in a smaller room (my living room is huge). Roger wasn't playing music with really deep, synthesized bass (my speakers never had a single issue playing jazz or classical).

But, my point is... I don't think going for the Vifas will magically get you the 25-20Hz Roger claims. I'm not saying he's wrong - he knows far more than I ever will, and he's a living legend. But I suppose there are certain limitations in order to get to that number.

[blur]

Re: Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

Guess it's time for some nd90s?

[rmeinke]

Re: Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

Bummer man... but $2,200 will buy a lot of drivers You made out quite nicely!!

[thekorvers]

Re: Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

So long for the array. A friend of my dad heard it and bought it in the spot. Can't say I did badly: $2,200. I'll probably build another one, with the Vifas. But not this year. These things really, really, really are a pain!

Congratulations! That should be a validation of your speaker building prowess!:applause:

[fjhuerta]

Re: Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

So long for the array. A friend of my dad heard it and bought it in the spot. Can't say I did badly: $2,200. I'll probably build another one, with the Vifas. But not this year. These things really, really, really are a pain!

[Pete Basel]

Re: Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

Interesting thread. I saw you mentioned crossing to your sub at 80 Hz, why not try 40 since the XO will
be 6 dB down at 40 Hz? I also notice that your EQ boost rises fast below 60 so if not 40 perhaps 50 or 60 Hz.
I'd think that should help keep the arrays sounding full range.
Hmmm, has me thinking of a line array for the sub:

http://www.dougronald.com/images/IRS_2.jpg

I don't know if that woofer tower has any of the advantages of distributed subs, but the Harman concept
for distributed subs is something else to think about.

[fjhuerta]

Re: Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

Hey David,
I think Javi's measurements before EQ is on post #20. Javi can correct us if I'm wrong...

No, I didn't post them. They are a complete mess! I could do a quick and dirty measurement tomorrow, but be warned... it's pretty ugly stuff.

[fjhuerta]

Re: Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

I don't understand why you guys are so insistent on forcing these arrays to play the full frequency spectrum. Because of the non-directionality of the lower frequencies, there should be no problem seamlessly integrating one or more subwoofers into the system. Why force these small drivers to do what they were not designed for and introduce distortion and other problems into the process.

You can probably fit a round peg into a square hole by beating enough on it, but why would you?

40-45 Hz does seem to be the lower limit for this array.

Having said that:

A side by side subwoofer getting to 20 Hz sounds amazing, but something's lost on the array. If I had to say what, I'd think some of the coherence is lost, and the magical "top-down" sound is dead. Even though I played with the level, crossover settings, etc, it always happens. The speaker does sound better without a subwoofer, although not as loud.

[fjhuerta]

Re: Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

This is what I've found myself playing around with these. right now i have 6 per side and theyre blending with stereo subs pretty nicely. did you do anything for BSC?


that's a lot of eq down low. at volume do they "muddy" at all? loving your write up.


with these drivers i dont think you could get down to 20hz. imho a pair or more of subs built into the arrays would do a far better job at volume.

No, they don't muddy at all, but they can't keep up at higher levels.

I've done several simulations with different drivers, including the ones Roger Russell used, and they cannot, and will not, reproduce 20 Hz at anything over 90 something dB levels. I can't imagine how he did it.

[rmeinke]

Re: Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

Channel 1 of EQ.


Channel 2 of EQ.

None of the measurements are of the raw line array. But these are the most telling of the frequency response of the line. If you inverse these, it is what you would expect from the line... when summed the target is a flat freq. response.

The best we have to take away from these measurements I'm afraid.

[Juhazi]

Re: Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

^No they are not. But there are eq curves - just imagine uneq'd response! We can see more than 20dB of bass eq, no wonder distortion can be an issue. Treble eq is compensation of comb filtering, is it really necessary by ear?

[blue934]

Re: Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

Those graphs in #20 appear to be EQ'd. just smoothed and unsmoothed.
David

[Tin_Ears]

Re: Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

How about these puppies in terms of potential driver in like minded design? Dayton Audio PS95-8 3-1/2" Point Source Full Range Driver 8 Ohm.

I can only "guess" that performance would improve but... at more than three times the cost for the drivers.

[dst]

Re: Yet Another IDS-25 Clone! 25 Fountek FE-83 drivers in a line array

How about these puppies in terms of potential driver in like minded design? Dayton Audio PS95-8 3-1/2" Point Source Full Range Driver 8 Ohm.