WinPCD - New tab for finding Relative Acoustic Offset

[dlr]

There is a new tab section in WinPCD to make it easier and, I hope, more intuitive for finding relative acoustic offset. This could already be done using the main design section, but that was not as intuitive and a bit clunky since it requires re-use of design section input. The new section is free-standing in that you can use it just for finding the offsets, then use those files and the offsets in other software with the caveat that you have to know how the z-axis is handled, whether positive values for offset place the center in front of or behind the baffle. WinPCD is, I believe, in sync with Jeff's PCD on this. Negative values place the position behind the baffle, more correctly, behind the origin (0,0,0).

dlr

[bret191]

Re: WinPCD - New tab for finding Relative Acoustic Offset

Nice.

Thanks!

[ani_101]

Re: WinPCD - New tab for finding Relative Acoustic Offset

There is a new tab section in WinPCD to make it easier and, I hope, more intuitive for finding relative acoustic offset. This could already be done using the main design section, but that was not as intuitive and a bit clunky since it requires re-use of design section input. The new section is free-standing in that you can use it just for finding the offsets, then use those files and the offsets in other software with the caveat that you have to know how the z-axis is handled, whether positive values for offset place the center in front of or behind the baffle. WinPCD is, I believe, in sync with Jeff's PCD on this. Negative values place the position behind the baffle, more correctly, behind the origin (0,0,0).

dlr

Great. Thanks.

Just so I am clear, do we follow a similar process - i was trying to follow the other thread, but most of it went above my head. The PCD steps are outlined below.

- Measure on tweeter axis, tweeter, mid and woofer individually.
- Measure on Tweeter axis, all drivers connected in parallel.
- Extract minimum phase (can the min phase extraction be done in WinPCD?)
- Load the 4 graphs in WinPCD
- Set tweeter as 0,0,0 and set the x and y axis for the mid and woofer. if in same line as tweeter (baffle centered), then x remains the same, if mid and woofer below tweeter then y is neagative
- Mess around with the z axis, till the 3 individual graphs line up with the combined FR. Z is negative for mid and woofer assuming the acoustic center is behind the tweeter.

Regards
Ani

[ani_101]

Re: WinPCD - New tab for finding Relative Acoustic Offset

PS - Cannot access WinPCD at work now, but am working on a new project and need to measurements soon. I will try this out in both PCD and winPCD.

[jclin4]

Re: WinPCD - New tab for finding Relative Acoustic Offset

Great. Thanks.

Just so I am clear, do we follow a similar process - i was trying to follow the other thread, but most of it went above my head. The PCD steps are outlined below.

- Measure on tweeter axis, tweeter, mid and woofer individually.
- Measure on Tweeter axis, all drivers connected in parallel.
- Extract minimum phase (can the min phase extraction be done in WinPCD?)
- Load the 4 graphs in WinPCD
- Set tweeter as 0,0,0 and set the x and y axis for the mid and woofer. if in same line as tweeter (baffle centered), then x remains the same, if mid and woofer below tweeter then y is neagative
- Mess around with the z axis, till the 3 individual graphs line up with the combined FR. Z is negative for mid and woofer assuming the acoustic center is behind the tweeter.

Regards
Ani

That looks right. I don't think WinPCD can extract min phase; I use Frequency Response Modeler for that.

In my version of WinPCD, I needed to load impedance files in order to get the individual files to sum. But I think that has been fixed in later versions, right Dave?

[ani_101]

Re: WinPCD - New tab for finding Relative Acoustic Offset

That looks right. I don't think WinPCD can extract min phase; I use Frequency Response Modeler for that.

In my version of WinPCD, I needed to load impedance files in order to get the individual files to sum. But I think that has been fixed in later versions, right Dave?

The Frequency Response Modeler needs the old version of Excel (2007). I do have it working though (just barely) and use it for the min phase. PCD will still run on 2010.

[dlr]

Re: WinPCD - New tab for finding Relative Acoustic Offset

- Measure on tweeter axis, tweeter, mid and woofer individually.
- Measure on Tweeter axis, all drivers connected in parallel.
- Extract minimum phase (can the min phase extraction be done in WinPCD?)
- Load the 4 graphs in WinPCD
- Set tweeter as 0,0,0 and set the x and y axis for the mid and woofer. if in same line as tweeter (baffle centered), then x remains the same, if mid and woofer below tweeter then y is neagative
- Mess around with the z axis, till the 3 individual graphs line up with the combined FR. Z is negative for mid and woofer assuming the acoustic center is behind the tweeter.

You find the offset between a pair of drivers at a time, not three. For three drivers you have to find offset twice. For example, once between tweeter and midrange and again between tweeter and woofer. There is no need to separately find it between midrange and woofer.

Certainly for starting out, I would suggest always doing this on the tweeter axis, it simplifies it just a bit. It's really all only geometry, but it can be confusing at first.

That looks right. I don't think WinPCD can extract min phase; I use Frequency Response Modeler for that.

Correct, I have not added that in. I would like to, but I don't know how long that will take and have not yet looked into it.

In my version of WinPCD, I needed to load impedance files in order to get the individual files to sum. But I think that has been fixed in later versions, right Dave?

Actually, no. :( I haven't changed that. I have provided flat files (SPL @90db and Z @4 and 8 ohms), but the code still requires the impedance for the design section. The new RAO section does not require impedance, however, since no crossover is involved, unless for the case where a cap is used on the tweeter and a feedback probe that bypasses the upstream is not available. This does involve the crossover for the tweeter, so that would still have to be done in the main section. Personally, I've never used a cap on the tweeter for measurements.

dlr

[Jay1]

Re: WinPCD - New tab for finding Relative Acoustic Offset

Nice feature!

[Jeff B.]

Re: WinPCD - New tab for finding Relative Acoustic Offset

You find the offset between a pair of drivers at a time, not three. For three drivers you have to find offset twice. For example, once between tweeter and midrange and again between tweeter and woofer. There is no need to separately find it between midrange and woofer.

dlr

Thank you for making this point. I think a lot of people over complicate things attempting to find the offset between the woofer and midrange because there will be a crossover between these two drivers. However, they are forgetting that they have called their tweeter "zero" and they only need to know the offset between each driver and the reference "zero", and everything else falls into place.

[maynardg]

Re: WinPCD - New tab for finding Relative Acoustic Offset

Thanks, Dave, for WinPCD and all your other contributions. I've been using the earlier version. This one, though, does not like me. Any ideas, anyone?

OPERATION PROGRESS STATUS
* [5/23/2015 7:05:19 AM] : Activation of C:\Users\MJ\Desktop\Speakers\WinPCD_v1.410\WinPCD. application has started.

ERROR DETAILS
Following errors were detected during this operation.
* [5/23/2015 7:06:59 AM] System.Deployment.Application.DeploymentDownloadEx ception (Unknown subtype)
- Downloading file:///C:/Users/MJ/Desktop/Speakers/WinPCD_v1.410/WinPCD.application did not succeed.
- Source: System.Deployment
- Stack trace:
at System.Deployment.Application.SystemNetDownloader. DownloadSingleFile(DownloadQueueItem next)
at System.Deployment.Application.SystemNetDownloader. DownloadAllFiles()
at System.Deployment.Application.FileDownloader.Downl oad(SubscriptionState subState)
at System.Deployment.Application.DownloadManager.Down loadManifestAsRawFile(Uri& sourceUri, String targetPath, IDownloadNotification notification, DownloadOptions options, ServerInformation& serverInformation)
at System.Deployment.Application.DownloadManager.Down loadDeploymentManifestDirectBypass(SubscriptionSto re subStore, Uri& sourceUri, TempFile& tempFile, SubscriptionState& subState, IDownloadNotification notification, DownloadOptions options, ServerInformation& serverInformation)
at System.Deployment.Application.DownloadManager.Down loadDeploymentManifestBypass(SubscriptionStore subStore, Uri& sourceUri, TempFile& tempFile, SubscriptionState& subState, IDownloadNotification notification, DownloadOptions options)
at System.Deployment.Application.ApplicationActivator .PerformDeploymentActivation(Uri activationUri, Boolean isShortcut, String textualSubId, String deploymentProviderUrlFromExtension, BrowserSettings browserSettings, String& errorPageUrl)
at System.Deployment.Application.ApplicationActivator .ActivateDeploymentWorker(Object state)
--- Inner Exception ---
System.Net.WebException
- The operation has timed out
- Source: System
- Stack trace:
at System.Net.FileWebRequest.GetResponse()
at System.Deployment.Application.SystemNetDownloader. DownloadSingleFile(DownloadQueueItem next)

COMPONENT STORE TRANSACTION DETAILS
No transaction information is available.

[dlr]

Re: WinPCD - New tab for finding Relative Acoustic Offset

Wow, I've never seen a problem like that. It has the appearance of being a problem with the .Net framework download. The program remains targeted for .Net 4.0, but Microsoft may make changes that require some kind of update. I've noticed that recently the startup seems to take a bit longer, making me think that at run time it's checking to see that the .Net framework is up-to-date on the PC. That's only speculation. The only thing that makes sense from the stack trace is a problem downloading from Microsoft. It ultimately drills down to a WebException. Nothing in WinPCD has anything web related other than the .Net checks built into the Microsoft Click-Once install.

If you have the previous version, try uninstalling the new one (if it registered as installed) and try the previous one.

The .Net is an install as any other program and can be uninstalled, though there are multiple entries to clean it out so-to-speak. I've got .Net 4.5, so there are multiples of that plus a single entry for 4.0. I'm not up-to-date on details, I suspect that higher versions clean out unneeded lower versions with backward compatibility. I don't want to have you do things to your PC that could cause other problems, but it may be a case of needing to uninstall the .Net framework and let it download and reinstall which will be automatic as before. But in this instance, don't do it on my suggestion alone, I'm not familiar with details. It's probably like the Java runtime, you have versions that can be installed/removed under your control.

dlr

[maynardg]

Re: WinPCD - New tab for finding Relative Acoustic Offset

Version 1.3.0 Version 1 installs and runs. That is the latest version I have.

[maynardg]

Re: WinPCD - New tab for finding Relative Acoustic Offset

My .Net version is 4.5.2

[maynardg]

Re: WinPCD - New tab for finding Relative Acoustic Offset

The .Net uninstall has a repair option. I'll try that.

[dlr]

Re: WinPCD - New tab for finding Relative Acoustic Offset

My .Net version is 4.5.2

Mine is also 4.5.2. I built this version on my laptop, rather than my desktop. I'll have to update the source control for the changes ( I use the cloud now) and pull it on my main PC to see if that will make a difference. So far, though, I've had no other reports of issues. It's definitely a web request issue according to the stack trace.

Do you a second PC to test the install? I've got multiple PCs and have installed it on two (Win7 Home and Pro). I'll try it on an XP PC as well.

dlr