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Full marty vs tapped/flh horn, all things equal?

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  • Full marty vs tapped/flh horn, all things equal?

    What would the differences be if i built a full marty with the recommended driver and the recommended amp, or if i built a tapped horn like the hzhorn or a different subwoofer horn like the BFM's THT, lil mike f20 or the lilwrecker? I have had a few threads talking about subwoofer needs, and as i learn more the marty seems to be a very good option with the proper power and the proper driver, if all things were optimal, ie power driver and positioning what would the differences be. Also, how do you corner load a subwoofer, do you fire the driver and the port at the wall or do you just place the subwoofer into the corner facing outwards towards the listener?

    Full Marty here : http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...tysub-faq.html
    Last edited by jason171717; 06-07-2015, 07:59 PM.

  • #2
    Re: Full marty vs tapped/flh horn, all things equal?

    Jason,

    You might need to provide a reference to a Full Marty to the PETT crowd. I think, because the various "Marty" variation of ported enclosure are best known (and that nomenclature mostly used) on the AVS Forum, that fewer people on this forum are likely to have familiarity with the Marty enclosures.

    Maybe links to the dimensions, etc., would be a good idea.
    Sausage With Meat Sause, Please

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Full marty vs tapped/flh horn, all things equal?

      Originally posted by Beau View Post
      Jason,

      You might need to provide a reference to a Full Marty to the PETT crowd. I think, becuase the various "Marty" variation of ported enclosure are best known (and that nomenclature mostly used) on the AVS Forum, that fewer people on this forum are likely to have familiarity with the Marty enclosures.

      Maybe links to the dimensions, etc., would be a good idea.
      +1 and none of bills designs are tapped horns.
      https://www.facebook.com/Mosaic-Audi...7373763888294/

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Full marty vs tapped/flh horn, all things equal?

        Originally posted by Beau View Post
        Jason,

        You might need to provide a reference to a Full Marty to the PETT crowd. I think, becuase the various "Marty" variation of ported enclosure are best known (and that nomenclature mostly used) on the AVS Forum, that fewer people on this forum are likely to have familiarity with the Marty enclosures.

        Maybe links to the dimensions, etc., would be a good idea.
        I may edit the original post to add in those dims but here is the link to the marty : http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...tysub-faq.html

        Full marty 2'x25.5"x4' at 11 cuft

        i will edit the tapped horn thing as well thanks isaeagle

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Full marty vs tapped/flh horn, all things equal?

          thanks for pointing that out. tapped horn uses front and back driver outputs

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Full marty vs tapped/flh horn, all things equal?

            Originally posted by jason171717 View Post
            thanks for pointing that out. tapped horn uses front and back driver outputs
            I wouldn't describe it just that way. In fact, I'd probably describe it much differently.

            As a 5,000 foot description, I've lifted this from another source:

            “The tapped horn is a relatively obscure subwoofer arrangement, only recently brought to prominence by Tom Danley. A tapped horn is unlike other horns, in that it uses the radiation from both the front and rear of the driver, and combines them at the mouth. This allows for many possibilities, including greater efficiency, smaller enclosure size, and deeper extension. One of the greatest benefits a tapped horn exhibits over other arrangements is lower excursion (the distance a woofer moves from rest). Because of the acoustic load placed on the driver, excursion is reduced, leading to increased maximum SPL and lower distortion.”

            As a point of reference, in case you are looking for additional information on tapped horn designs, the DIY Audio forum has a LOT of information on that type of design.
            Sausage With Meat Sause, Please

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Full marty vs tapped/flh horn, all things equal?

              Originally posted by Beau View Post
              As a 5,000 foot description, I've lifted this from another source:

              “The tapped horn is a relatively obscure subwoofer arrangement, only recently brought to prominence by Tom Danley. A tapped horn is unlike other horns, in that it uses the radiation from both the front and rear of the driver, and combines them at the mouth. This allows for many possibilities, including greater efficiency, smaller enclosure size, and deeper extension. One of the greatest benefits a tapped horn exhibits over other arrangements is lower excursion (the distance a woofer moves from rest). Because of the acoustic load placed on the driver, excursion is reduced, leading to increased maximum SPL and lower distortion.”
              That's not quite correct. The tapped horn is a variation on the classic rear loaded folded horn, as perhaps epitomized by the 1950s Jensen Imperial. It differs in that there's no rear chamber, and the driver is located within the horn. It is smaller than a front loaded horn for the same extension, because it has no rear chamber. But the rule that there's no free lunch applies. While excursion is reduced, with SPL increased and distortion lowered, that's in comparison to a direct radiator. Compared to a FLH it has greater excursion and higher THD.
              As to the original question, all things are not equal between a ported cab and a horn. A 'Marty' is simply a ported cab. It won't approach the high sensitivity or low THD of either a tapped or front loaded horn.
              www.billfitzmaurice.com
              www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Full marty vs tapped/flh horn, all things equal?

                Originally posted by Beau View Post
                I wouldn't describe it just that way. In fact, I'd probably describe it much differently.

                As a 5,000 foot description, I've lifted this from another source:



                As a point of reference, in case you are looking for additional information on tapped horn designs, the DIY Audio forum has a LOT of information on that type of design.
                I had a slight idea mostly just the design ;)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Full marty vs tapped/flh horn, all things equal?

                  Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
                  That's not quite correct. The tapped horn is a variation on the classic rear loaded folded horn, as perhaps epitomized by the 1950s Jensen Imperial. It differs in that there's no rear chamber, and the driver is located within the horn. It is smaller than a front loaded horn for the same extension, because it has no rear chamber. But the rule that there's no free lunch applies. While excursion is reduced, with SPL increased and distortion lowered, that's in comparison to a direct radiator. Compared to a FLH it has greater excursion and higher THD.
                  As to the original question, all things are not equal between a ported cab and a horn. A 'Marty' is simply a ported cab. It won't approach the high sensitivity or low THD of either a tapped or front loaded horn.
                  Sorry i did not display that properly, as for all things equal i meant the optimized driver and amp for each project sorry!

                  Thank you
                  Jason h

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Full marty vs tapped/flh horn, all things equal?

                    Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
                    That's not quite correct. The tapped horn is a variation on the classic rear loaded folded horn, as perhaps epitomized by the 1950s Jensen Imperial. It differs in that there's no rear chamber, and the driver is located within the horn. It is smaller than a front loaded horn for the same extension, because it has no rear chamber. But the rule that there's no free lunch applies. While excursion is reduced, with SPL increased and distortion lowered, that's in comparison to a direct radiator. Compared to a FLH it has greater excursion and higher THD.
                    As to the original question, all things are not equal between a ported cab and a horn. A 'Marty' is simply a ported cab. It won't approach the high sensitivity or low THD of either a tapped or front loaded horn.
                    Your subs are front loaded horns?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Full marty vs tapped/flh horn, all things equal?

                      Originally posted by jason171717 View Post
                      Sorry i did not display that properly, as for all things equal i meant the optimized driver and amp for each project sorry!
                      A ported sub cannot achieve the same high sensitivity and low THD that either a tapped or FLH can.
                      Your subs are front loaded horns?
                      The Tubas and Titans are. The Simplexx may be built as sealed or ported.
                      www.billfitzmaurice.com
                      www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Full marty vs tapped/flh horn, all things equal?

                        Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
                        A ported sub cannot achieve the same high sensitivity and low THD that either a tapped or FLH can.
                        The Tubas and Titans are. The Simplexx may be built as sealed or ported.
                        Do you loose any performance going to the tuba ht lp? can you still load the lp with a 15" driver? does corner loading affect the thtlp due to it firing down or up, and which do you recommend, fire it down or up? Thanks for the help, i may be buying the plans soon.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Full marty vs tapped/flh horn, all things equal?

                          Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
                          Compared to a FLH it has greater excursion and higher THD.
                          Within its passband? The sims I've been doing suggest that the excursion is greater outside of its passband, similar to a 6th order BP alignment. Within its passband, the excursion characteristics are also similar to a 6th order BP, with its corresponding advantages over lower-order alignments.
                          Brian Steele
                          www.diysubwoofers.org

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Full marty vs tapped/flh horn, all things equal?

                            Originally posted by Brian Steele View Post
                            Within its passband? The sims I've been doing suggest that the excursion is greater outside of its passband, similar to a 6th order BP alignment. Within its passband, the excursion characteristics are also similar to a 6th order BP, with its corresponding advantages over lower-order alignments.
                            But what is the thd and more importantly how does it sound compare to flh or tapped horns or bass reflex?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Full marty vs tapped/flh horn, all things equal?

                              Originally posted by jason171717 View Post
                              But what is the thd and more importantly how does it sound compare to flh or tapped horns or bass reflex?
                              The THD will depend on a number of factors, e.g. what driver you're using, how well the TH is constructed, and of course the power level you're driving it at.

                              I've seen one test done comparing a TH against a vented alignment. The tester said that the TH demonstrated more THD, but also said that the TH provided up to 6dB more output as well. Ideally IMO any THD comparisons should be done at the same SPL level in the passband.

                              FWIW, I wouldn't worry about the THD issue. Two things you need to consider when comparing designs - (1) is there a difference, and (2) does the difference make a difference. In the case of THD and THs, I'd suggest the answer to #2 is no.

                              What DOES make an appreciable difference IMO is what happens to the response of most THs above the effective passband. You'll need some DSP or steep LP filtering to address the peaks above the passband. You'll also likely need to be able to delay the main speakers a bit to get the best match between them and a TH (sub)woofer.
                              Brian Steele
                              www.diysubwoofers.org

                              Comment

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