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  • #91
    Re: Announcing the Parts Express Speaker Design Team call

    Originally posted by dustinbagby View Post
    Now, the desinger still has the physical first pair of speakers, and thats great. They have a small reward, paid for by PE, for their hard work.
    They have the reward that is being offered. If it was hard work rather than fun I think it would be a rather strange deal to make in the first place.

    Originally posted by dustinbagby View Post
    However PE has the rights to the actual design work.
    Although Ginger has kind of implied the opposite I think it unlikely that PE want to own the copyright of the design. They seem to want an exclusive license to exploit it for one year and a non-exclusive license to exploit it after that. The designer to always own the copyright. For the right to do this they will help with the development costs. To me this looks both reasonable and fairly straightforward to setup but I am not a lawyer. It obviously needs clarifying particularly if they do want to own the copyright.

    Originally posted by dustinbagby View Post
    So all of the money generated by this new speaker belongs to PE. The designer has already been compensated for their work, so as the kits just keep flying off the shelves PE just bankrolls, with the design costing them a one time "cost of wholesale parts."
    The money is generated by selling parts at a profit. I am not sure why this might be considered an issue for a hobbyist designer. Personally I would rather my designs were popular and made lots of money rather than a small amount equal to the worth of the original parts.

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    • #92
      Re: Announcing the Parts Express Speaker Design Team call

      Originally posted by jeff b. View Post
      ginger,

      if i may make a suggestion - rather than a monthly or quarterly stipend and guys feeling some pressure to crank out a project (even if you are not intentionally putting any pressure on them), why not just let them contact a point-person at pe when they are ready to work on a project, whether it is 1 or 5 a year, and you guys credit their account at that time so they can get started. This way there is no pressure on anyone and you are still supporting as they need. You may get very good participation this way.
      excellent!

      I think I hear a difference - wow, it's amazing!" Ethan Winer: audio myths
      "As God is my witness I'll never be without a good pair of speakers!" Scarlett O'Hara

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      • #93
        Re: Announcing the Parts Express Speaker Design Team call

        Originally posted by dustinbagby View Post
        Here is where things get a bit fuzzy for me.

        Lets pretend the Overnight Sensations were a design turned in by this team. Cheap, small, sounds good, and VERY marketable to beginners. PE loves the design, turns it into a kit and boom, they start flying off the shelves. They begin selling by the thousands, and the cash is just rollin' in.

        Now, the desinger still has the physical first pair of speakers, and thats great. They have a small reward, paid for by PE, for their hard work. However PE has the rights to the actual design work. So all of the money generated by this new speaker belongs to PE. The designer has already been compensated for their work, so as the kits just keep flying off the shelves PE just bankrolls, with the design costing them a one time "cost of wholesale parts."

        Is this correct? Gosh I sure hope not.
        This scenario plays out every day in the real world of industry. An engineer invents something and is awarded a stipend whilst his employer goes on to produce the item and sells millions of it. Only, in this case, as Ginger has pointed out, designer/builders will not be employees of PE.
        Live in Southern N.E.? check out the CT Audio Society web site.

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        • #94
          Re: Announcing the Parts Express Speaker Design Team call

          Originally posted by andy19191 View Post
          They have the reward that is being offered. If it was hard work rather than fun I think it would be a rather strange deal to make in the first place.


          Although Ginger has kind of implied the opposite I think it unlikely that PE want to own the copyright of the design. They seem to want an exclusive license to exploit it for one year and a non-exclusive license to exploit it after that. The designer to always own the copyright. For the right to do this they will help with the development costs. To me this looks both reasonable and fairly straightforward to setup but I am not a lawyer. It obviously needs clarifying particularly if they do want to own the copyright.


          The money is generated by selling parts at a profit. I am not sure why this might be considered an issue for a hobbyist designer. Personally I would rather my designs were popular and made lots of money rather than a small amount equal to the worth of the original parts.
          Look, thats my two cents, which I am certainly entitled to. The issue I have is that PE is going to make thousands, and the person behind the revenue generator gets to put in hours of work, and all its going to cost PE is what they have in parts. Keep in mind your "credit" is good towards the retail value, not what PE pays, so if they decide to sell your kit for $200, and the parts only cost THEM $100, they make their money back first thing. Now the bankrolling process begins, and the designer gets to sit back and watch, with no royalties, as PE makes thousands off of their hard work. PE's benefit FAR exceeds yours, but you are the one who did all the work. Its costing them practically nothing. They wouldnt be doing this if it wasnt cheaper than finding a good design posted here, and paying the designer a small royalty to sell that design as a kit.

          If you are alright with that, then by all means go for it. Thats your choice, but to me it's not a hard one (not that I am up to snuff anyway).

          Comment


          • #95
            Re: Announcing the Parts Express Speaker Design Team call

            Originally posted by dustinbagby View Post
            And I think this is where someone needs to be careful. As I stated in my last post, if you design a speaker, PE loves it and sells it as a kit, and they do in fact own the right to the design since youve agreed to be compensated with a one time cost of parts, then you lose. Period.

            To say that this is just a way to clean up their project page and post designs in their flyers is awfully naive, especially based on the vague information weve been given. When dealing with a large company you have to wonder why they arent just contracting a single person to do these things. Their goal, here and now and always, is to save money. Theres a huge potential for you to be on the losing end of that.
            First off, I don't appreciate being called 'naive' and second over the years PE has treated all of us in an amazingly fair manner: Support for our DIY events, product give-aways, and this very forum (with technical support that others don't offer incorporated right here!) as just a few examples.

            While I appreciate your concerns I'm not one that sees the potential of evil in every offer and danger around every corner. I'm thankful for the opportunity to contribute to the community and have someone underwrite that cost.

            Thanks,
            Marty

            Comment


            • #96
              Re: Announcing the Parts Express Speaker Design Team call

              Originally posted by martyh View Post
              First off, I don't appreciate being called 'naive' and second over the years PE has treated all of us in an amazingly fair manner: Support for our DIY events, product give-aways, and this very forum (with technical support that others don't offer incorporated right here!) as just a few examples.

              While I appreciate your concerns I'm not one that sees the potential of evil in every offer and danger around every corner. I'm thankful for the opportunity to contribute to the community and have someone underwrite that cost.

              Thanks,
              Marty
              This forum generates revenue, no doubt. Sponsoring DIY events generates revenue. They give out a couple pairs of carbon fiber midwoofers, and everyone is dyong to get their hands on a pair. MWAF generates A TON of revenue. Now, dont take this as a lack of gratitude, because I am very thankful for all of it, but dont think they are doing those things just for us. They are doing those things because its makes money, and lots of it. Now, also dont think I am faulting them for that. Thats business. However, if I am going to put in hours and hours of my time to design a speaker, I am going to do it for me. I am not going to give someone else the rights to make money off of my work and not pay me a royalty on it. We arent talking about designing a speaker for a friend, here.

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              • #97
                Re: Announcing the Parts Express Speaker Design Team call

                Originally posted by dustinbagby View Post
                Look, thats my two cents, which I am certainly entitled to.
                Of course and others are entitled to point out that it seems a bit weird given the parties involved are hobbyists trying to enjoy their hobby and a parts supplier seeking to sell more parts to hobbyists by generating interest. I see no reason why both parties cannot gain from such an arrangement although I think the details need to be worked out a bit more.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Re: Announcing the Parts Express Speaker Design Team call

                  Originally posted by andy19191 View Post
                  Of course and others are entitled to point out that it seems a bit weird given the parties involved are hobbyists trying to enjoy their hobby and a parts supplier seeking to sell more parts to hobbyists by generating interest. I see no reason why both parties cannot gain from such an arrangement although I think the details need to be worked out a bit more.
                  Absolutely, but my point is that the hobbyist is the one doing all of the work, for what I consider to be a less than satisfactory compensation (assuming the stipend is no more than a few hundred dollars per project in parts).

                  If its going to be used in a kit, I feel a royalty is due.

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                  • #99
                    Re: Announcing the Parts Express Speaker Design Team call

                    No need to debate this. There are those biting at the bit to join and those that won't. So, good luck to those that do.
                    Kenny

                    http://www.diy-ny.com/
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                    • Re: Announcing the Parts Express Speaker Design Team call

                      Originally posted by kenny_k View Post
                      No need to debate this. There are those biting at the bit to join and those that won't. So, good luck to those that do.
                      +1!!

                      From my read, most of the 'top tier' designers seem to have bowed out and to me, that represents a great opportunity for the rest to gain street creds.
                      Live in Southern N.E.? check out the CT Audio Society web site.

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                      • Re: Announcing the Parts Express Speaker Design Team call

                        Of course the other side of the coin is that guys who think they can design brilliant speakers and sell millions of them, can do so as they desire. Nobody stops nobody from opening a company, investing money and showing the world how good they are. But it's like these imaginary great speakers are already designed, build and PE just made tonnes of profit and designers are concerned with their fair share. It's a bit too, premature isn't it?
                        I agree with ROTECH. It's about street cred and ability to play with the toys. Sounds like a good deal to me. And then and IF you become somebody famous who's speakers and designs are wanted 24/7, I am sure PE will approach you with monetary offer. Until then, enjoy the hobby, play with the toys and have a good time.
                        http://www.diy-ny.com/

                        Comment


                        • Re: Announcing the Parts Express Speaker Design Team call

                          After reading Ginger's clarifications I think this could be an excellent opportunity for many builders. Having your project in the middle of a flyer is a pretty cool thing, and if Parts Express wants to assist with the purchase of the parts that's even better. I've been to a lot events, there are a lot of guys who make some very nice sounding speakers but haven't really had an opportunity to shine. For those guys I think this is a great opportunity to get your name out there and take advantage of PE's generosity in doing so. I'm pretty busy these days and I really don't know how much longer I can do this stuff before I'm forced to take a step back, but with a little more flexibility in system I might even reconsider applying.
                          Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

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                          • Re: Announcing the Parts Express Speaker Design Team call

                            Holy cow! People seem to be getting really worked up over this. To me, this seems like a great opportunity to get parts paid for by someone else that you probably would have purchased anyway. Most of you guys already post your designs up on the internet for FREE already! If your design becomes popular, guess who makes money? Not you. It's PE, Madisound, and Meniscus. And you have paid for all the parts yourself and done all of the hard work. Yet you gladly give them away for free. Now that PE is willing to give you a stipend to be able to use the design on their website for a year, you all want to balk at it. That doesn't make any logical sense to me...
                            -Kerry

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                            • Re: Announcing the Parts Express Speaker Design Team call

                              Originally posted by Navy Guy View Post
                              Holy cow! People seem to be getting really worked up over this. To me, this seems like a great opportunity to get parts paid for by someone else that you probably would have purchased anyway. Most of you guys already post your designs up on the internet for FREE already! If your design becomes popular, guess who makes money? Not you. It's PE, Madisound, and Meniscus. And you have paid for all the parts yourself and done all of the hard work. Yet you gladly give them away for free. Now that PE is willing to give you a stipend to be able to use the design on their website for a year, you all want to balk at it. That doesn't make any logical sense to me...
                              +1

                              I would be all over this if I was more confident in my abilities and had the time to invest. I think PE is going above and beyond, just to get some ideas to post online and in print for one year.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Announcing the Parts Express Speaker Design Team call

                                In evaluating the design team concept, I think a lot of you are overvaluing your position as hobbyist designers. Financially, you don't really have any skin in the game and most of you probably don't want any. The only reason speaker designs have value is if someone else is willing to pick up the ball and do the heavy lifting in areas such as

                                1. Marketing
                                2. Inventory/vendor management
                                3. Order fulfillment

                                While I would like someone to just send me checks without dealing with any of those issues/risks, I realize that the only way that will happen is if I can demonstrate to those who write the checks that I provide differentiating value through my design prowess and/or reputation for such. In that context, I think the design team concept is reasonable and fair.

                                What PE gets in return is a set of designs they can point customers toward that can help move their products. The process of vetting the design team helps increase the likelihood of customer satisfaction and perception of quality for their products by having the products put in a position to show off their strengths while minimizing their weaknesses.
                                Keep an open mind, but don't let your brain fall out.

                                Sehlin Sound Solutions

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