12" Subwoofer for 1 cu ft 500W Sealed

[Pete Basel]

I designed a 1 cu ft sub in the PE prefab cabinet several years ago wanting to use the
TC Epic 12" but it was not sold here, at that time, and I also wanted to use an XBL motor so I went
with the CSS Trio 12" which has worked well. I actually pushed PE to carry the TC line.

Looking for the best driver to use with a 500W plate amp and have simulated:
TC Epic 12
CSS Trio 12
Dayton RS315HF
Dayton RS315HO
Dayton Ultimax UM12-22
Titanic MK4
Infinity W1260
Eminence Lab12

The TC Epic 12 really stands out with good small signal response and with Xmax=18.1, Xmax70=22.9,
Xmech=32.7 mm it will be coasting with 500W and could probably take the 1000W plate amp if
not abused.
But it is no longer sold by PE, yes I read about the QC problems, any suggestions for a driver
under $200 and sold by PE that performs better than what I've tried so far?
Most of the above simulate with 113 dB in the passband at 500W, and very similar response from
20-50 Hz at 500W input. But the Ultimax is only 110 dB in the passband with a highish 1.0 Qtc and
also a similar response 20-50 Hz at equal amplitude as the others.

They all need some boost at 25 Hz to make up for the small box, most need about 6 dB, the Ultimax
less because of the lowered passband.

Any suggestions for a driver sold by PE and comparable or better than the TC Epic 12, less than $200?

The current CSS SubDuction SDX-12, XBL is far too big to fit in the cab and over budget.

[philthien]

Re: 12" Subwoofer for 1 cu ft 500W Sealed

Just curious if you actually built one of these and the driver went bad, or you started but never got the driver, or want a 2nd similar unit for someone else?

[Pete Basel]

Re: 12" Subwoofer for 1 cu ft 500W Sealed

As I said, built it, actually a pair with the CSS Trio 12", as stated 1 cu ft box 500W Dayton plate amp.

Interested in another build.

[Whitneyville1]

Re: 12" Subwoofer for 1 cu ft 500W Sealed

If you can stand a 14" cube (3/4" walls), with the plate amp outboard of that volume, any of the Dayton subs are workable, with the HO, Titanic IV, and Ultimax each having different advantages and undoubtedly different sounds. Play with WinISD with about 1-1.25 cu. ft. net (less bracing and driver volume) and see what happens.

[Jeff B.]

Re: 12" Subwoofer for 1 cu ft 500W Sealed

Hey, You just described my Continuum Subwoofer that I took to the 2012 MWAF and won the unlimited category.




I have worked with quite a few of the drivers on your list. Of all of the 12's I have worked with sealed my first pick in a 1 cu ft enclosure in this price range is not on your list. However, it would be the Dayton 310DVC. Its parameters are best optimized for an application like this. After it, I would probably go with the Ultimax 12 out of your list, although head to head the DVC was more impressive to me and I had them both at the same time to compare.

The best 12" for the job isn't on your list either, but I have a pair that I will be using soon in a sealed box whose measured parameters are really impressive. It's the Acoustic Elegance IB12AU-4. With its full copper sleeve in the motor, it is really nice.

Jeff

[ani_101]

Re: 12" Subwoofer for 1 cu ft 500W Sealed

Hey, You just described my Continuum Subwoofer that I took to the 2012 MWAF and won the unlimited category.

I have worked with quite a few of the drivers on your list. Of all of the 12's I have worked with sealed my first pick in a 1 cu ft enclosure in this price range is not on your list. However, it would be the Dayton 310DVC. Its parameters are best optimized for an application like this. After it, I would probably go with the Ultimax 12 out of your list, although head to head the DVC was more impressive to me and I had them both at the same time to compare.

The best 12" for the job isn't on your list either, but I have a pair that I will be using soon in a sealed box whose measured parameters are really impressive. It's the Acoustic Elegance IB12AU-4. With its full copper sleeve in the motor, it is really nice.

Jeff

Does the dvc310 really have 89 db sensitity, if so, then it is really great. How high can it realistically play? Might be interesting in a 3 way.

[Jeff B.]

Re: 12" Subwoofer for 1 cu ft 500W Sealed

Does the dvc310 really have 89 db sensitity, if so, then it is really great. How high can it realistically play? Might be interesting in a 3 way.

Yes, it would be 89.8 dB/2.83V or about 87 dB/1 Watt for use with a subwoofer amp. I did not measure its upper frequency limit, but I am sure it would be fine for a 400 - 500 Hz crossover if that's what you're getting at.

This is modeled from the old Adire Audio Shiva subwoofer, which was quite the performer in its day.

[Pete Basel]

Re: 12" Subwoofer for 1 cu ft 500W Sealed

If you can stand a 14" cube (3/4" walls), with the plate amp outboard of that volume, any of the Dayton subs are workable, with the HO, Titanic IV, and Ultimax each having different advantages and undoubtedly different sounds. Play with WinISD with about 1-1.25 cu. ft. net (less bracing and driver volume) and see what happens.

CAn't go any larger, and I did "play" with them all in simulation.

Asking for more options and I might as well add Klippel or Dumax data.

[Pete Basel]

Re: 12" Subwoofer for 1 cu ft 500W Sealed

Hey, You just described my Continuum Subwoofer that I took to the 2012 MWAF and won the unlimited category.

I have worked with quite a few of the drivers on your list. Of all of the 12's I have worked with sealed my first pick in a 1 cu ft enclosure in this price range is not on your list. However, it would be the Dayton 310DVC. Its parameters are best optimized for an application like this. After it, I would probably go with the Ultimax 12 out of your list, although head to head the DVC was more impressive to me and I had them both at the same time to compare.

The best 12" for the job isn't on your list either, but I have a pair that I will be using soon in a sealed box whose measured parameters are really impressive. It's the Acoustic Elegance IB12AU-4. With its full copper sleeve in the motor, it is really nice.

Jeff

AE is not available at PE.

I want the option of actually using 14+mm excursion which requires more than 500W so the Dayton 310DVC is out.
Your comment on the Ultimax being outdone by the DVC probably rules out the Ultimax for me, you were probably
not even using half of the Ultimax's potential.

Wish they'd bring back the CSS Trio 12", but it never was available from PE anyway.
Wish PE would bring back the TC Epic 12 since it looks very good to me, as it did in 2009 when I simulated it.

[ani_101]

Re: 12" Subwoofer for 1 cu ft 500W Sealed

Yes, it would be 89.8 dB/2.83V or about 87 dB/1 Watt for use with a subwoofer amp. I did not measure its upper frequency limit, but I am sure it would be fine for a 400 - 500 Hz crossover if that's what you're getting at.

This is modeled from the old Adire Audio Shiva subwoofer, which was quite the performer in its day.

Yes, I was looking at it as the bottom of a 3 way, 300 - 500 is about the range. Is there any difference in sensitivity regarding a subwoofer amp, vs going all passive and powering with a massive amp?

Regards
Ani

[ani_101]

Re: 12" Subwoofer for 1 cu ft 500W Sealed

AE is not available at PE.

I want the option of actually using 14+mm excursion which requires more than 500W so the Dayton 310DVC is out.
Your comment on the Ultimax being outdone by the DVC probably rules out the Ultimax for me, you were probably
not even using half of the Ultimax's potential.

sorry, i didn't understand. The xmax is 15mm as per the specs for the DVC310

[Pete Basel]

Re: 12" Subwoofer for 1 cu ft 500W Sealed

People should try simulating at 500W (or 44.7 V) for all of these and look at the SPL 20-50 Hz
where it is important for an application like this. The differences are small. Efficiency matters
more if you use the woofer up into the passband say 100Hz and up.

And thermal compression will be a major factor at these high power levels.

[Pete Basel]

Re: 12" Subwoofer for 1 cu ft 500W Sealed

sorry, i didn't understand. The xmax is 15mm as per the specs for the DVC310

15mm is fairly good and it might work well with 500W or less but it also has a non-conductive
former so I don't expect the thermal capacity to be very good.
The Infinity also simulated very well with 500W or less, one of the best - I have not heard them
but might buy a pair just to try them as a very low cost option.

[Jeff B.]

Re: 12" Subwoofer for 1 cu ft 500W Sealed

sorry, i didn't understand. The xmax is 15mm as per the specs for the DVC310

Yes, and the same driver is marketed under another name and they list it at 18mm

[Jeff B.]

Re: 12" Subwoofer for 1 cu ft 500W Sealed

Yes, I was looking at it as the bottom of a 3 way, 300 - 500 is about the range. Is there any difference in sensitivity regarding a subwoofer amp, vs going all passive and powering with a massive amp?

Regards
Ani

If you're going with a passive crossover and matching it up to a midrange/midbass then you want to compare the sensitivity at 2.83V. If you're making a subwoofer with a plate amp, then the wattage sensitivity is more useful for telling you how loud it will play.