Gedlee on distortion

[mattsk8]

Re: Gedlee on distortion

To be quite honest, I don't care either way. His ability or desire to design/build a loudspeaker doesn't refute or confirm his conclusion about distortion.

I find it a common theme:

Pallas makes a claim.

People disagree with the claim.

Rather than present evidence to dismiss his claim, we simply ask Pallas what he has designed and attempt to dismiss him by poisoning the well. Whether or not he has designed anything does not change the validity of his statements. I'll agree that sometimes Pallas can be condescending, but I'm not sure I blame him; when he claims something people disagree with they tend to get combative--often times before he does.

I think it would serve the discussion much better to ask Pallas for his evidence and to make an argument against his claim with counter evidence rather than dismiss him because he hasn't posted a build.

My 0.02.

Also, "PallasandhisToole" made me chuckle. :p

Not being snarky, but have you ever read some of Pallas' replies here? I agree with some of them as well. But on other replies he'll tear someone down in a hugely condescending way, and his replies are often based on speculative pretense that's based on a theory that has never been proven. And that's fine if you want to hang your hat on it, but don't look down on others when they don't.

For example, Carl's AMT thread; give that a read and let me know what you think. I know for sure Pallas has never heard those tweeters, or he wouldn't have responded with what he did. Yet, he still thought it important to attempt to criticize them (subsequently knocking a design that Carl obviously worked hard on and had some decent money into), then tried to back his [assumptions] up with more meaningless babble.

There isn't a group of anti-Pallas guys here that sit around discussing who gets to post responses to the things Pallas says, but there is a collective group here that gets sick of his constant badgering based on something he read in a book or online, and never tried himself. And I can admit that saying "he never tried it himself" is my own assumption. But I believe it's correct, and that's why I'm 100% in agreement with Hong's comment here, as well as Carl's.

"You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar", a proverb Pallas could learn a lot from. I'm not saying he has to, he can obviously go through life being a condescending pri*k if he wants to. But don't be surprised when people lash out if that's how you want to approach them ;).

If you read this thread carefully, several people started by disagreeing with statements made by Gedlee, NOT by Pallas. Of course, Pallas had to jump in, and in his usual subtle ways, called into question people's ability to comprehend the written word, and therefore, the level of their intelligence. Now, I'm not a smart guy when it comes to distortion and harmonics discussion, but I find it completely disgusting for Pallas to conclude that if you can't read or comprehend a document, you're somehow are less intelligent than he is. My post is not about attacking Pallas, and call me "small minds" like some earlier posters did, but it's about having a decent and civil discourse without bringing out your high horse and your elitism. On Carl's argument that Pallas should share his designs, I agree with you Carl. This is a DIY forum, so back up your assertions, assumptions, theories, and postulations with actual designs. After all, if you don't use the scientific method to prove your point, do you really have a point?

I used to be big into mountain biking, I had a descent bike and really just enjoyed the journeys (I wasn't looking for a gold medal). But there was this guy that seemed to suck the life out of it, I hated riding with that guy. He used to tell everyone their posture was all wrong, explain gear ratios on hills and sand, explained to everyone why their bike was cr*p and his was awesome, etc. But the really funny thing was, I was faster on the trail than him, and I honestly think I had more fun than he did. I guess every hobby has that guy :rolleyes:.

[Sydney]

Re: Gedlee on distortion

...But there was this guy that seemed to suck the life out of it, I hated riding with that guy. He used to tell everyone their posture was all wrong, explain gear ratios on hills and sand, explained to everyone why their bike was cr*p and his was awesome, etc. ...I guess every hobby has that guy.

Got a chuckle from that as it reminded me other scenarios, though the activities were different: Guys who didn't like playing Golf with "certain" people, Guys who domineered conversation with extensive use of the pronoun I; Pontificating and taking forever to tell a boring personal anecdote.

[craigk]

Re: Gedlee on distortion

In defense of Pallas I met with him over dinner not long ago followed by a trip to do some listening at his house. Our discussion was enjoyable and he's obviously very knowledgeable and didn't come off as arrogant or offensive. Like Earl Geddes and myself he has strong opinions and preferences concerning speakers based on his personal experiences. I also met Earl once at an audio show and we had a good discussion, not a very long one, but distortion was one of the topics.

Not surptised at all that the two you got along well together.

[Deward Hastings]

Re: Gedlee on distortion

At low output level, noise often dominates the nonlinearities and THD drops below the noise threshold.

System noise is usually determined by 1) SNR of the source (rarely if ever better than 90dB) and 2) background noise level in the listening room (typically around 30dBa). Amplifier noise should be below both, and low level amplifier distortion should be 5-10 dB below the system noise (completely masked). Neither of those amplifier requirements are difficult to accomplish (find) for the DIYer (although many commercial amps won't meet them).

It is also useful to know useable headroom for worst case high level brief crests.

In all modern systems max signal is defined by 0dBfs (digital) at some point in the system. All gain and power stages should be scaled to that, and none need capacity over that (better that they not have, to retain a high SNR). Amplifier clipping or saturation is easily determined without extensive distortion measurement to verify "rated power", so unless the manufacturer is seriously prevaricating about power rating it's a wasted effort (although the graph makes for good marketing to people who only look at power ratings). Amplifier distortion at low power levels (where most home listening is done) is what you need to know, and what most manufacturers are least likely to tell you.

Amplifier power should be scaled to the driver/speaker, and never needs to be (never should be) much more than what it takes to push the driver/speaker to its (usually excursion) limits, and amplifier distortion should be examined at "normal" listening levels and in light of what's happening (signal and noise) throughout the rest of the system. It should not be difficult (or terribly expensive) for a DIYer to assemble a system (electronics and drivers) that exhibits no audible non-linear distortion in normal use.

[r-carpenter]

Re: Gedlee on distortion

This is the nature of the speaker design. Distortions are a problem then they are a problem. Polar response creates artifacts then initial design has issues. Badly made, vibrating cabinet can make the speaker sound colored. If everything executed properly, music plays. One thing is not more important than the other.

[hongrn]

Re: Gedlee on distortion

In general, as a group, I hope that we can agree to discuss difficult and polarizing issues the mature way. Intelligence has to go hand in hand with people's skills, communication skills and common sense. To me, the ability to convey your thoughts to the next person and have that person consider your viewpoint in an objective manner is critical. In my real life job, I've fired so many smart guys with MBAs because they can't relate to people, and I'll hire an inexperienced person with a great attitude over a bitch with 400 years of experience. Intelligence by itself is really overrated. Now let's continue with this awesome discussion on distortion. Thanks.

[carlspeak]

Re: Gedlee on distortion

In general, as a group, I hope that we can agree to discuss difficult and polarizing issues the mature way. Intelligence has to go hand in hand with people's skills, communication skills and common sense. To me, the ability to convey your thoughts to the next person and have that person consider your viewpoint in an objective manner is critical. In my real life job, I've fired so many smart guys with MBAs because they can't relate to people, and I'll hire an inexperienced person with a great attitude over a bitch with 400 years of experience. Intelligence by itself is really overrated. Now let's continue with this awesome discussion on distortion. Thanks.

:applause: and a +1!

[craigk]

Re: Gedlee on distortion

In general, as a group, I hope that we can agree to discuss difficult and polarizing issues the mature way. Intelligence has to go hand in hand with people's skills, communication skills and common sense. To me, the ability to convey your thoughts to the next person and have that person consider your viewpoint in an objective manner is critical. In my real life job, I've fired so many smart guys with MBAs because they can't relate to people, and I'll hire an inexperienced person with a great attitude over a bitch with 400 years of experience. Intelligence by itself is really overrated. Now let's continue with this awesome discussion on distortion. Thanks.

Nice

[carlspeak]

Re: Gedlee on distortion

For example, Carl's AMT thread; give that a read and let me know what you think. I know for sure Pallas has never heard those tweeters, or he wouldn't have responded with what he did. Yet, he still thought it important to attempt to criticize them (subsequently knocking a design that Carl obviously worked hard on and had some decent money into), then tried to back his [assumptions] up with more meaningless babble.

.

I believe we all can agree that not all dome tweeters are constructed exactly the same or sound the same or test the same. For that reason, the same should hold true for AMT tweeters as well. Although the principal of operation is the same, not all AMT's are the same for similar reasons, IMHO. It seems to me pallas has made an assumption that they are all the same by tying the AMT in my project to what appears to be an OAM model of some sort that was used in the speaker tested at the NRC pallas linked to.
Just my 2 cents.

[mattsk8]

Re: Gedlee on distortion

I believe we all can agree that not all dome tweeters are constructed exactly the same or sound the same or test the same. For that reason, the same should hold true for AMT tweeters as well. Although the principal of operation is the same, not all AMT's are the same for similar reasons, IMHP. It seems to me pallas has made an assumption that they are all the same by tying the AMT in my project to what appears to be an OAM model of some sort that was used in the speaker tested at the NRC pallas linked to.
Just my 2 cents.

I absolutely agree with you. If I had never heard those Mundorf AMTs, I would be in the "I don't like AMTs" camp. But those Mundorfs are nearly perfect to my ears.

[carlspeak]

Re: Gedlee on distortion

I absolutely agree with you. If I had never heard those Mundorf AMTs, I would be in the "I don't like AMTs" camp. But those Mundorfs are nearly perfect to my ears.

Do you have or know of a build with those AMT's in it?

[mattsk8]

Re: Gedlee on distortion

Do you have or know of a build with those AMT's in it?

No, but I hopefully will someday. I went to CES last January in Vegas, and heard those in a couple different designs, and every time I heard them the one thing that stood out was, "Man I love those tweeters!". I'll try to find a pic and the manufacturer, but it wasn't DIY, it was commercial.

[craigk]

Re: Gedlee on distortion

Do you have or know of a build with those AMT's in it?

If you look ip the kaiser line of speakers you will find they use several of the mundorfs.

[Pete Basel]

Re: Gedlee on distortion

Carl's thread would have been much more productive if people agreed to look for more tests of AMTs, determine if Pallas was correct in his claim and then discuss ways to find out if the dynamic issues are audible. Perhaps a reference is needed to make it easier to hear them.

Instead, some became defensive as if the AMT's were their darling children. I am pleased that he pointed this out because I had not noticed it and now I'll keep and eye out for an AMT that doesn't have the dynamic issues. Not defending his style.

A few people liking, or loving the AMTs does not mean that they do not have issues, more likely it suggests that it was a casual listening situation.

[carlspeak]

Re: Gedlee on distortion

If you look ip the kaiser line of speakers you will find they use several of the mundorfs.

Wow, those are some 'no holes barred' speakers! The closest dealer to me is in NYC.
Of course, being German made, why not German drivers; in some of them at least. I found it unusual they even detail the brands of crossover parts they used. Not many do, probably because they are not using Duelunds and Mun. Silver/Gold brands.